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This is a list
of speeches
from the openparliament.ca API. If you’re new here, you might want to look at the documentation. If API and JSON are gibberish to you, you’re better off at our main site.
Get this resource as raw JSON.
{
"objects": [
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:05:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor\u2014Tecumseh, NDP)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243509\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order to respond to a point of order that was raised by the <a data-HoCid=\"128856\" href=\"/politicians/tom-lukiwski/\" title=\"Tom Lukiwski\">Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons</a>. I must admit that when I heard the objection he was making to a question that was put on the order paper, I was a bit surprised given your ruling about four years ago when he and I had an exchange on the same point. What I see are very similar issues and he appears to be making the same errors in terms of his analysis of this particular question by the member for <a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a>. It is about Standing Order 39(1) and 39(2) and just for the record. Standing Order 39(1) reads:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243510\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Questions may be placed on the Order Paper seeking information from Ministers of the Crown relating to public affairs; and from other Members, relating to any bill.... </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243511\" data-originallang=\"en\">I will not go on with the rest of it, as it is really the second part that is important. It authorizes the Clerk of the House to be able to determine whether the question is a proper one. The test for that is that the question must be coherent and concise. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243512\" data-originallang=\"en\">The question was submitted and I will give a quick history because this is not in the record right now. We had the pattern up until, I believe, 1999 where there were very little limits on the number of questions members could put on the order paper. I have heard some commentary suggesting it could be as much thousands of questions on the order paper. There was no limit on the number of questions that individual members could put on either.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243513\" data-originallang=\"en\">In 1999, we changed the Standing Orders and limited to four the number of questions that any member of Parliament could have on the order paper at any given time and, at that time, introduced Standing Orders 39(1) and 39(2) where we are dealing with this issue of what test is used. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243514\" data-originallang=\"en\">Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the way around the limit of four, which I think you have recognized in previous rulings, is to put a whole bunch of sub-questions in. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243515\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, in terms of the rulings, and specifically the one you made in 2006 involving a question that was on the order paper to the defence department by Dawn Black, a former member of Parliament from New Westminster--Coquitlam, you made a specific ruling and I want to draw your attention to that because it has not been mentioned by the other people who argued this in previous days. You made several rulings that have guided us since then, which is why I am surprised that it is here, but I want to draw your attention to it again. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243516\" data-originallang=\"en\">You made reference to the history and then you talked about a pattern that we had seen by members of the opposition, Conservative members or Reform Alliance, I am not sure which party they were, where very lengthy questions were being put in. Within this one ruling, Mr. Speaker, you made it very clear that length was not the test, that it was conciseness. In this case, you made a ruling on October 18, 2006, and I will read two points with regard to the issue of length. The first point is on the fourth page of the decision:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243517\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The issue was not the length of the question but rather the fact that it contained unrelated sub-questions. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243518\" data-originallang=\"en\">Therefore, you made the point that it was back to conciseness. With regard to how conciseness is looked at, you made this point:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243519\" data-originallang=\"en\"> It is no longer interpreted to mean short or brief but rather comprehensible. Undoubtedly, this practice has evolved as a means of getting around the limit of four questions per member. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243520\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I want to read part your decision in Question No. 9 because you set out the means by which you proceeded to divide the question. I must say that what you did at that point was logical. You broke it down into three sub-questions. With regard to the paragraph that deals with that, you said:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243521\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The first question concerns the government's objectives, strategy, vision, results and capabilities with respect to the Afghanistan mission and includes 33 sub-questions. The second deals specifically with Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan. It contains five subsections. Seven sub-questions related to financial matters are grouped together in a third question. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243522\" data-originallang=\"en\">You broke it down that way and it seemed to be a logical and appropriate result. I think the House, generally, was quite satisfied and has tended to guide itself by that ruling over the last four years.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243523\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, now we come to the question that the member for <a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a> has put forward. I have looked at it, using your same criteria, and I must admit that it is quite a lengthy question, as the parliamentary secretary pointed out repeatedly. However, although it is very lengthy, it really asks the government if it has done the analyses. There are five analyses and then two other sections. I could see it being broken down into two questions but no more than that.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243524\" data-originallang=\"en\">The point I want to make in this regard, and I feel like I may be acting on behalf of the member for <a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a>, is that what he has really done is to be helpful to the government in terms of it being able to respond. He is saying that here are the analyses that he wants to know about, whether they are legal and the effect it has on privacy. He has listed those at the start of each subsection and then explains the kind of detail he wants, if the government has it.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243525\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is easy for the government to say that it has very clear points that the member wants to know, which, I believe, makes it easier for the government to respond, as opposed to the member just putting the individual headings of the analyses that he wants and then the government is left to try to guess how much detail he wants. He has set that detail out. Therefore, his question is concise and comprehensive.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243526\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, if you are going to break it down at all, I think it should not be into more than two questions: one is very clear analyses, and there are five of those, and there are two other areas.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243527\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The parliamentary secretary kept arguing that if the intent here is to delay the matter. If the effect of these questions are to cause some delay to the government, it is not a criteria that you, Mr. Speaker, would take into account, at least you have never ruled that way in the past. So that is a specious argument as far I can see.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243509\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, j'invoque le R\u00e8glement en r\u00e9ponse au recours au R\u00e8glement soulev\u00e9 par le <a data-HoCid=\"128856\" href=\"/politicians/tom-lukiwski/\" title=\"Tom Lukiwski\">secr\u00e9taire parlementaire du leader du gouvernement \u00e0 la Chambre des communes</a>. \u00c9tant donn\u00e9 la d\u00e9cision que vous avez rendue il y a quatre ans lorsque le d\u00e9put\u00e9 et moi avions soulev\u00e9 le m\u00eame point, je dois reconna\u00eetre que j'ai \u00e9t\u00e9 un peu surpris de son objection \u00e0 la question inscrite au <em>Feuilleton</em>. Je constate que les probl\u00e8mes sont tr\u00e8s similaires et qu'il semble commettre les m\u00eames erreurs dans son analyse de la question inscrite au nom du d\u00e9put\u00e9 d'<a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a>. La question se rapporte aux paragraphes 39(1) et 39(2) du R\u00e8glement. Le paragraphe 39(1) dit ceci: </p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243510\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Les d\u00e9put\u00e9s peuvent faire inscrire au <em>Feuilleton</em> des questions adress\u00e9es \u00e0 des ministres de la Couronne en vue de renseignements sur quelque affaire publique; ils peuvent, de la m\u00eame mani\u00e8re, poser des questions \u00e0 d'autres d\u00e9put\u00e9s \u00e0 la Chambre sur un projet de loi [...] </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243511\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je ne lirai pas le reste, car ce qui importe, c'est le deuxi\u00e8me paragraphe, qui indique que le greffier de la Chambre a le pouvoir de d\u00e9cider si la question est recevable. Pour qu'elle le soit, la question doit \u00eatre coh\u00e9rente et concise.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243512\" data-originallang=\"en\">La question a \u00e9t\u00e9 soumise, et je vais pr\u00e9senter un bref historique parce qu'il ne figure pas au compte rendu pour l'instant. Jusqu'en 1999, je crois, il y avait tr\u00e8s peu de limites quant au nombre de questions que les d\u00e9put\u00e9s pourraient faire inscrire au <em>Feuilleton</em>. Selon certains commentaires que j'ai entendus, des milliers de questions pouvaient \u00eatre inscrites au <em>Feuilleton</em>. Il n'y avait pas de limite quant au nombre de questions qu'un d\u00e9put\u00e9 pouvait faire inscrire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243513\" data-originallang=\"en\">En 1999, nous avons chang\u00e9 le R\u00e8glement et limit\u00e9 \u00e0 quatre le nombre de questions pouvant \u00eatre inscrites au <em>Feuilleton</em> \u00e0 tout moment, au nom d'un m\u00eame d\u00e9put\u00e9. Toujours \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque, nous avons mis en place les articles 39(1) et 39(2) du R\u00e8glement qui traitent des crit\u00e8res \u00e0 respecter \u00e0 ce sujet.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243514\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, en ce qui concerne cette limite de quatre questions, je pense que, dans des d\u00e9cisions ant\u00e9rieures, vous avez reconnu qu'un des moyens de contourner la r\u00e8gle est d'inclure un tr\u00e8s grand nombre de questions secondaires.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243515\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, j'aimerais traiter de vos d\u00e9cisions, en particulier de celle que vous avez prise en 2006 au sujet d'une question \u00e0 l'intention du minist\u00e8re de la D\u00e9fense nationale qu'avait fait inscrire Dawn Black, l'ancienne d\u00e9put\u00e9e de New Westminster--Coquitlam, parce que les autres d\u00e9put\u00e9s qui ont pris la parole ces derniers jours n'en ont pas parl\u00e9. Vous avez rendu plusieurs d\u00e9cisions qui, depuis, nous ont guid\u00e9s. Je suis donc \u00e9tonn\u00e9 que cette question ait \u00e9t\u00e9 soulev\u00e9e, mais j'aimerais de nouveau attirer votre attention l\u00e0-dessus.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243516\" data-originallang=\"en\">Vous avez fait allusion aux pr\u00e9c\u00e9dents et parl\u00e9 d'une tendance observ\u00e9e chez les d\u00e9put\u00e9s de l'opposition, des conservateurs, des r\u00e9formistes ou des alliancistes, je ne me souviens plus exactement du parti. Ces d\u00e9put\u00e9s faisaient inscrire des questions tr\u00e8s longues. Dans cette d\u00e9cision, monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, vous aviez indiqu\u00e9 tr\u00e8s clairement que le crit\u00e8re principal n'\u00e9tait pas la longueur de la question, mais plut\u00f4t sa concision. Permettez-moi de lire deux extraits de la d\u00e9cision que vous avez rendue le 18 octobre 2006 et qui portent sur la question de la longueur. Le premier extrait figure \u00e0 la page 4 de votre d\u00e9cision et se lit comme suit:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243517\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Ce qui faisait probl\u00e8me, ce n'\u00e9tait pas la longueur de la question, mais plut\u00f4t le fait qu'elle comportait des questions secondaires sans rapport entre elles. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243518\" data-originallang=\"en\">Par cons\u00e9quent, vous avez de nouveau soulign\u00e9 qu'il importe de respecter le crit\u00e8re de la concision. En ce qui concerne la fa\u00e7on d'interpr\u00e9ter le terme \u00ab concision \u00bb, vous avez dit ceci:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243519\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Il n\u2019est plus compris comme voulant dire \u00ab court \u00bb ou \u00ab bref \u00bb, mais plut\u00f4t comme ayant le sens de \u00ab compr\u00e9hensible \u00bb. On en est sans aucun doute arriv\u00e9 \u00e0 cette vision des choses dans le but de contourner la limite de quatre questions par d\u00e9put\u00e9. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243520\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, j'aimerais lire une autre partie de votre d\u00e9cision sur la Question n<sup>o</sup> 9, o\u00f9 vous avez pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 les moyens utilis\u00e9s pour scinder la question. Je dois dire que votre raisonnement \u00e9tait logique. Vous l'avez divis\u00e9e en trois sous-questions. Voici ce que vous avez dit \u00e0 ce sujet:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243521\" data-originallang=\"en\"> La premi\u00e8re porte sur l\u2019objectif, la strat\u00e9gie, la vision, les r\u00e9sultats et les capacit\u00e9s relatifs \u00e0 la mission en Afghanistan et comprend 33 questions secondaires. La seconde a trait de fa\u00e7on pr\u00e9cise aux pertes parmi les membres des Forces canadiennes en Afghanistan et comprend cinq questions secondaires. Sept questions secondaires ayant trait aux questions financi\u00e8res sont regroup\u00e9es en une troisi\u00e8me question. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243522\" data-originallang=\"en\">Vous avez divis\u00e9 la question de fa\u00e7on logique et judicieuse. Dans l'ensemble, la Chambre \u00e9tait tr\u00e8s satisfaite du r\u00e9sultat et elle s'est inspir\u00e9e de cette d\u00e9cision au cours des quatre derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243523\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quoi qu'il en soit, revenons \u00e0 la question du d\u00e9put\u00e9 d'<a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a>. Je l'ai analys\u00e9e en fonction des crit\u00e8res dont vous avez parl\u00e9. Je dois admettre que la question est tr\u00e8s longue, comme le secr\u00e9taire parlementaire l'a soulign\u00e9 \u00e0 maintes reprises. Toutefois, le d\u00e9put\u00e9 demande essentiellement au gouvernement s'il a fait ses analyses. Il parle de cinq analyses et ensuite il y a deux autres sections. Au plus, la questions pourrait \u00eatre scind\u00e9e en deux.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243524\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ce \u00e0 quoi je veux en venir, et j'interviens peut-\u00eatre ici en faveur du d\u00e9put\u00e9 d'<a data-HoCid=\"128151\" href=\"/politicians/pablo-rodriguez/\" title=\"Pablo Rodriguez\">Honor\u00e9-Mercier</a>, c'est que celui-ci a, en fait, rendu service au gouvernement pour ce qui est de fournir une r\u00e9ponse. Il indique quelles analyses l'int\u00e9ressent, veut savoir s'il s'agit d'analyses juridiques et demande l'effet qu'elles ont sur la vie priv\u00e9e. Il \u00e9num\u00e8re ces points au d\u00e9but de chaque paragraphe et explique le type de renseignement recherch\u00e9, pour peu que le gouvernement ait l'information en sa possession.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243525\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00c0 mon avis, il est plus facile pour le gouvernement de r\u00e9pondre en sachant tr\u00e8s pr\u00e9cis\u00e9ment ce qui int\u00e9resse le d\u00e9put\u00e9. Autrement, le gouvernement doit deviner \u00e0 partir des titres des analyses les pr\u00e9cisions que le d\u00e9put\u00e9 souhaite obtenir. Le d\u00e9put\u00e9 a d\u00e9j\u00e0 indiqu\u00e9 tout ce qu'il veut. Par cons\u00e9quent, sa question est concise et exhaustive.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243526\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, si vous choisissez de scinder la question, il ne faudrait pas, \u00e0 mon avis, qu'elle compte plus de deux parties: l'une concernerait clairement les analyses, il y en a cinq, et l'autre porterait sur les deux autres sujets.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243527\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le secr\u00e9taire parlementaire n'a cess\u00e9 de faire valoir qu'on cherche \u00e0 retarder les travaux. Les retards que ces questions pourraient entra\u00eener pour le gouvernement ne constituent pas un crit\u00e8re dont vous tiendrez compte dans votre d\u00e9cision, monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, du moins vous n'en avez jamais tenu compte dans le pass\u00e9. Pour autant que je sache, il s'agit donc d'un argument sp\u00e9cieux.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664843",
"h2": {
"en": "Points of Order",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Order Paper Question No. 614",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Speaker",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243528\" data-originallang=\"en\">I thank the hon. member for his interest in the subject and I am sure I will be coming back to the House in due course.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243528\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je remercie le d\u00e9put\u00e9 de l'int\u00e9r\u00eat qu'il porte \u00e0 la question. Je ferai part de ma d\u00e9cision \u00e0 la Chambre en temps opportun. </p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/the-speaker-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/peter-milliken/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3187/",
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "3664851",
"h2": {
"en": "Points of Order",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Order Paper Question No. 614",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Harold Albrecht (Kitchener\u2014Conestoga, CPC)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243529\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. I would just point out that during his intervention, which was timely, the member said that the way around the rules of the four questions is to have many subsections. I think it is up to us as parliamentarians not to find ways around the rules but to actually live by the rules.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243529\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je prends la parole au sujet du recours au R\u00e8glement. Je souligne simplement que le d\u00e9put\u00e9 a affirm\u00e9 dans son intervention, une intervention tout \u00e0 fait opportune, qu'il serait possible de contourner le probl\u00e8me en cr\u00e9ant un paragraphe pour chacune des quatre questions. Or, \u00e0 mon avis, il incombe aux parlementaires de respecter les r\u00e8gles, et non de les contourner.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/harold-albrecht-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/harold-albrecht/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/311/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664852",
"h2": {
"en": "Points of Order",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Order Paper Question No. 614",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Speaker",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243530\" data-originallang=\"en\">I thank the hon. member for his interventions also. I will get back to the House in due course in respect to this matter.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243530\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je remercie \u00e9galement le d\u00e9put\u00e9 de ses interventions. Je ferai part de ma d\u00e9cision \u00e0 la Chambre en temps opportun. </p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/the-speaker-2/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/peter-milliken/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3187/",
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "3664855",
"h2": {
"en": "Points of Order",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Order Paper Question No. 614",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2243531\">The House resumed from December 8 consideration of the motion that Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30, An Act to amend the Criminal Code</a>, be read the second time and referred to a committee.</p>",
"fr": "<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2243531\">La Chambre reprend l'\u00e9tude, interrompue le 8 d\u00e9cembre, de la motion portant que le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30, Loi modifiant le Code criminel</a>, soit lu pour la deuxi\u00e8me fois et renvoy\u00e9 \u00e0 un comit\u00e9.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/procedural-1/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "p2243531",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor\u2014Tecumseh, NDP)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243532\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, the Shoker bill is a response to a decision by the Supreme Court of Canada that came down in February 2006. The government is finally getting around to dealing with this almost five years after the ruling. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243533\" data-originallang=\"en\">The ruling, even in 2006, was not a surprise because it started at the trial level, went to the Court of Appeal and then the Supreme Court of Canada. In each case, as I recall, the rulings were the same all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243534\" data-originallang=\"en\">It was interesting to listen to the parliamentary secretary in response to a question from the opposition side saying that the government needed three years to consult before it could even draft the bill. I have a hard time with that. The reality is that it has decided that this bill and correcting the problem are not very important because it does not do the usual thing that its crime bills do. There are no easy victims that it can trot out for photo ops and push its ideological agenda with regard to crime.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243535\" data-originallang=\"en\">On the other hand, for our police forces in particular, and our prosecutors and judges who deal with the criminal justice system, this is a very important problem for them. The solution is quite clear. I am not suggesting that the government could have turned this around overnight but almost five years after the fact is way too long.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243536\" data-originallang=\"en\">In terms of the constant false accusations that we hear from the <a data-HoCid=\"105824\" href=\"/politicians/rob-nicholson/\" title=\"Rob Nicholson\">Minister of Justice</a> about opposition parties delaying crime bills, this bill is before the House only because I asked the <a data-HoCid=\"151300\" href=\"/politicians/bob-dechert/\" title=\"Bob Dechert\">Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice</a> a couple of weeks ago why we were bothering with this bill going through its normal process.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243537\" data-originallang=\"en\"> It is a technical bill and, even though the bill is fairly lengthy, it is quite simple. We are responding to the Supreme Court of Canada decision. It was only before the House earlier this week and today for debate on the agreement of all parties that we will limit debate and send it through all stages today once I finish my speech.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243538\" data-originallang=\"en\">What it really says is that the government has a priority around crime but only where it benefits it from a partisan political standpoint, and this bill does not do that. I want to go back to just how important this bill is for the police officer on the street. I will put it in context.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243539\" data-originallang=\"en\">I cannot remember how long this goes back, but for a long time people have signed recognizances when they are initially charged and they are sometimes released with financial bail but usually just on conditions and most often those conditions are for the individual to abstain from the consumption of alcohol or, at the very least, drugs and other illicit substances of that nature. There are many cases of where people have been convicted within the criminal justice system and put on probation or, as part of their parole when they come out of incarceration, the same conditions, which are no consumption of alcohol or drugs.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243540\" data-originallang=\"en\">What has been a practice for about 20 to 30 years that I am aware of is that if police officers, in their normal course of duty, came across individuals who were subject to a recognizance, probation order or parole order, including these conditions, and became suspicious that they were breaching those conditions, they would demand a sample, usually urine but sometimes blood, and if the analysis of the substance was that there was alcohol or drugs present, they would lay a charge against the individuals for breach of recognizance, probation or parole and the courts would then deal with it, with the analysis being the principal piece of evidence against the individual.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243541\" data-originallang=\"en\">Around 2004, the Shoker case came before the courts on a charge of breach of probation. The defence counsel raised, for the first time in Canada, that there was no authority anywhere in our criminal laws that allowed the police to demand the sample. Even though accused people, convicted people in most cases, had probably breached their terms of probation or parole, there was no way police officers could demand what in effect was the proof they needed.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243542\" data-originallang=\"en\">As I said earlier, it was found that this was the case, that there was no authority for the police to do this. It went through the Court of Appeal and on up to the Supreme Court of Canada, all confirming there was no authority and unless the federal government set in place provisions within the Criminal Code and a system as to how those samples would be dealt with, the practice had to cease, and that has happened.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243543\" data-originallang=\"en\">The result of that is we have substantial frustration within our police forces. If police officers have a very solid suspicion that a person has breached these conditions, the consumption of alcohol or drugs, they are prohibited to act on that. Unless police officers actually catch the person in the process of consuming alcohol or drugs, which is rare for them to do, there are no effective means of proving the person has broke his or her parole conditions. When police officers catch people who they are suspicious of doing this, they have to turn a blind eye and let the person go.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243544\" data-originallang=\"en\">I want to emphasize the significance of what this has meant in one area. In trying to combat the street gangs, a few years ago Police Chief Blair in Toronto, the chief in Halifax more recently and I believe in Calgary as well will charge an individual who the police are suspicious of is part of a street gang, oftentimes a violent street gang. In most cases that person will get out on bail, but he or she will be under these conditions.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243545\" data-originallang=\"en\">Police forces have been targeting specific areas of their cities. They have been going to the houses of those people every day to check on them, particularly if they are on a curfew. If they have breached their conditions under that recognizance, then they will charge them, and in most cases those people will then be incarcerated until their trial.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243546\" data-originallang=\"en\">It has been a very effective tool. There are areas in the city of Toronto with I am fairly familiar. There are two areas in particular where the crime rate among the youth gangs dropped by 30%, 40% and 50% because of this tool. We have no way of proving this, but we can argue that if Shoker did not apply and if we had Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a> in place, it would be even more effective. In cases where police officers are suspicious of drug or alcohol consumption prohibited by the signing of a recognizance order, they have no way to charge them because they cannot prove it.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243547\" data-originallang=\"en\"> We were speculating in the earlier debate on this that the number of cases where the police have been unable to charge people clearly has to be in the thousands over the last five or six years. Again, it is not an issue that the government felt was important enough to deal with, but it has certainly been a very important one for our front-line police officers.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243548\" data-originallang=\"en\">I will go back to the decision by the Supreme Court. It was made very clear that there had to be a clear regime of how the samples would be demanded, how they would be treated and how they would ultimately would be disposed of. I acknowledge that the government has done this, which is a bit surprising given some of the other things it does with crime bills.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243549\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The government made it quite clear, and I suppose it was because the Supreme Court would have ruled this ultimately, that any of the samples could only be used for the purposes of proving the breach. The samples could not be used in any other criminal charges.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243550\" data-originallang=\"en\">The importance of that is to be very clear to the Canadian public generally that we understand, the courts understand and the criminal justice system understands that asking for a bodily fluid sample is an invasion of that person's general rights to privacy. Therefore, we had to be very careful, and the Supreme Court made this clear in its decision, in upholding the lower court ruling. That was the major reason for doing it. It said that this was a major incursion into an individual's rights of privacy. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243551\" data-originallang=\"en\">I want to make it clear that this is no reflection on the average police officer. However, some police officers, who were either overly zealous or abusive of their authority, would make unreasonable demands. Therefore, it wants to be very clear that if these demands are made, they are made for a very limited purpose in compliance with that court order or recognizance or parole condition and only for that purpose, thereby reducing the potential for those demands to be made unreasonably or abusively.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243552\" data-originallang=\"en\">That section is in Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a> and it is one that is in keeping with both the wording and the spirit of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in R. v. Shoker.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243553\" data-originallang=\"en\">As well, I want to be quite clear on the fact that the bill deals with the three separate areas where it is used. I made reference to the recognizance. The majority of cases where the police will attempt to enforce this are probably the recognizance cases. Again, when individuals are charged but not yet convicted or found innocent, if they do not want to be incarcerated pending their trials, they are required sign this recognizance, which in effect is a court order at that point.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243554\" data-originallang=\"en\">There are very standard clauses in the recognizance right across the country. The abstinence from alcohol and drugs is a very common one. Not associating with certain people is also a very common one. Being subject to a curfew between certain hours, not being out on the street, having to be in their residence and having to maintain a regular residence, is very standard. Those are the most common ones that I can think of just off hand. The one on alcohol and drugs is really important. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243555\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is hard to perhaps make the case without talking about the methodology and the mechanism that was used in New York to reduce the amount of crime. Generally the chief of police, but also Mayor Giuliani, really insisted on this. We can look to other communities in the U.S., and in some cases now Canada because of the current administration, where they use legislative responses to high crime rates.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243556\" data-originallang=\"en\">Any number of studies in the United States and some here have shown that a legislative response generally is much less effective in dropping the crime rates than it is using these kinds of tactics. I mentioned the ones that Chief Blair used in Toronto and the ones that chief in Halifax uses currently. I believe other chiefs have done it as well.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243557\" data-originallang=\"en\">New York City went after the little crimes. We talk about them cleaning up the graffiti. One of the areas that it went after was breaches of conditions, and the alcohol and drug one was the major one. Again, much was done in Toronto, this was widespread across the city. If people were caught consuming alcohol or drugs when they were prohibited to under the recognizance, they ended up back in jail. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243558\" data-originallang=\"en\">The effect was the serious crime rate for crimes such as drug trafficking and serious violent crimes, not the graffiti, not consumption of illicit drugs, dropped dramatically because the person was incarcerated and was physically removed. It also it gave the message to that crime element in New York City that it would not longer be tolerated. If people did something like this, they would be caught.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243559\" data-originallang=\"en\">It comes back to everything I learned in law school, in my law practice and in all the work that I have done here as a member of Parliament. It completely reaffirms, every time, that we could have a safe society, as safe as we can make it, by saying to that criminal element, those people who are so anti-social that they will commit crimes, and by convincing them that if they commit that crime, they will be caught. If we have a society where the vast majority of crimes are identified and prosecuted successfully, we very much drive crime rates down and we protect our citizens, which is our fundamental responsibility as parliamentarians.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243560\" data-originallang=\"en\">The fact that we have been unable to do this for the last four or five years has resulted in more crimes being committed that otherwise would not have been. We would have had these people either getting the message clearly that they would not get away with this, or they might be incarcerated and not available to commit crimes. That is why this is so important.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243561\" data-originallang=\"en\">The other point I want to make is with regard to those individuals who have been convicted, whether they are on provincial probation orders from the courts or they are under a parole order from our corrections authorities at the federal level. The availability of this right to demand samples and to use them is a key ingredient for those people, such as the social workers and corrections officers, who supervise people who are out on probation or subject to a parole order.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243562\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is one of the key ways they have of being able to say to people that they are engaged in lives very actively, that they want to ensure they do not commit a crime again. This is the message that goes to people who have been incarcerated but who are now out. The message is they are very closely monitoring their conduct. If they are subject to an order that requires them to abstain from alcohol or drugs and they identify or become suspicious that they have breached that, then they will insist the samples be given. If they are correct in their suspicions, those people will be charged.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243563\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is the ability of the corrections officers to use that tool in their monitoring and supervision that makes their jobs a lot easier. That is not the only consideration, but the major consideration is it makes their jobs much more effective. The enforcement of the probation orders and the enforcement of the parole conditions are much easier if they know they have the ability to turn to the police and say that they are suspicious, that they believe the person whom they have been supervising has breached his or her conditions and that they want to use the provisions of Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a> and take the sample. If the person has breached the condition, then the individual will be charged. This technique makes their jobs much more effective.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243564\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Again it begs this question. How many people out on probation, who were not caught quickly enough, who have deviated from the path they were supposed to following, get into more serious crimes? We do not know. I have had comments from other members who have worked in this area in the past and it has to be in the thousands. Therefore, a lot of crimes may have been prevented had this been in effect.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243565\" data-originallang=\"en\">The bill will go through the House today. It will get to the Senate. Hopefully it will not play any of its delaying tactics and we will have this before the courts for use in the next few weeks.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243532\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, le projet de loi Shoker donne suite \u00e0 la d\u00e9cision rendue par la Cour supr\u00eame du Canada en f\u00e9vrier 2006. Le gouvernement a enfin compris qu'il devait s'occuper du dossier presque cinq ans plus tard.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243533\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cette d\u00e9cision n'a jamais surpris personne, m\u00eame en 2006, car il y a d'abord eu un proc\u00e8s devant un tribunal de premi\u00e8re instance, puis l'affaire a \u00e9t\u00e9 port\u00e9e devant la Cour d'appel et, enfin, devant la Cour supr\u00eame du Canada. La d\u00e9cision de premi\u00e8re instance a tout simplement \u00e9t\u00e9 maintenue jusqu'\u00e0 la fin. Les d\u00e9cisions ont \u00e9t\u00e9 les m\u00eames, si je ne m'abuse.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243534\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il \u00e9tait int\u00e9ressant d'entendre ce que le secr\u00e9taire parlementaire avait \u00e0 dire en r\u00e9ponse \u00e0 une question de l'opposition. Selon lui, le gouvernement avait besoin de trois ans pour tenir des consultations avant de pouvoir commencer \u00e0 r\u00e9diger le projet de loi. J'ai peine \u00e0 le croire. En r\u00e9alit\u00e9, le gouvernement a plut\u00f4t d\u00e9cid\u00e9 qu'adopter ce projet de loi et corriger le probl\u00e8me n'\u00e9taient pas importants parce qu'il ne pourrait pas se livrer au m\u00eame genre d'op\u00e9ration m\u00e9diatique qu'il le fait habituellement lorsqu'il pr\u00e9sente des projets de loi contre la criminalit\u00e9. Il lui serait impossible de trouver facilement des victimes \u00e0 trimbaler avec lui pour une s\u00e9ance de photos et pour propager son id\u00e9ologie concernant le crime.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243535\" data-originallang=\"en\">En revanche, le probl\u00e8me \u00e0 r\u00e9soudre est tr\u00e8s important pour les services de police, en particulier, ainsi que pour les procureurs et les juges qui font fonctionner le syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale. La solution est assez claire. Je ne pr\u00e9tends pas que le gouvernement aurait pu corriger la situation du jour au lendemain, mais il est certain que la p\u00e9riode de presque cinq ans qu'il lui a fallu a \u00e9t\u00e9 beaucoup trop longue.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243536\" data-originallang=\"en\">Puisque le <a data-HoCid=\"105824\" href=\"/politicians/rob-nicholson/\" title=\"Rob Nicholson\">ministre de la Justice</a> passe son temps \u00e0 accuser les partis de l'opposition de retarder l'\u00e9tude des projets de loi sur la criminalit\u00e9, je tiens \u00e0 pr\u00e9ciser que, si la Chambre est en train de d\u00e9battre du projet de loi \u00e0 l'heure actuelle, c'est uniquement parce qu'il y a deux semaines environ, j'ai demand\u00e9 au <a data-HoCid=\"151300\" href=\"/politicians/bob-dechert/\" title=\"Bob Dechert\">secr\u00e9taire parlementaire du ministre de la Justice</a> pourquoi il fallait que nous nous encombrions de la proc\u00e9dure normale dans le cas de ce projet de loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243537\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est un projet de loi de nature technique et, m\u00eame s'il est assez long, il est en fait assez simple. Nous donnons suite \u00e0 la d\u00e9cision de la Cour supr\u00eame du Canada. Ce n'est que cette semaine que le projet de loi a \u00e9t\u00e9 soumis \u00e0 la Chambre. Aujourd'hui, nous en d\u00e9battons, et tous les partis ont convenu que nous allions limiter le d\u00e9bat et proc\u00e9der de mani\u00e8re exp\u00e9ditive \u00e0 toutes les \u00e9tapes de l'adoption aujourd'hui, d\u00e8s que j'aurai termin\u00e9 mon discours.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243538\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ce qu'il faut comprendre, c'est que le gouvernement fait de la lutte contre la criminalit\u00e9 sa priorit\u00e9, mais seulement lorsque cela sert ses int\u00e9r\u00eats partisans. Or, ce n'est pas le cas de ce projet de loi. Permettez-moi de rappeler \u00e0 la Chambre pourquoi ce projet de loi a une grande importance pour les agents de police qui oeuvrent sur le terrain. Pour cela, il faut que je d\u00e9crive le contexte.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243539\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je n'arrive pas \u00e0 me rappeler \u00e0 quand cela remonte, mais depuis longtemps les gens signent des engagements lorsqu'ils sont accus\u00e9s et ils sont lib\u00e9r\u00e9s, parfois moyennant une caution, mais en g\u00e9n\u00e9ral seulement avec conditions qui, la plupart du temps, exigent que la personne s'abstienne de consommer de l'alcool ou, \u00e0 tout le moins, des drogues et d'autres substances illicites du m\u00eame genre. Il existe de nombreux cas de personnes condamn\u00e9es par le syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale qui sont mises en probation ou qui sont, dans le cadre de leur lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle \u00e0 leur sortie de prison, soumises aux m\u00eames conditions, soit l'interdiction de consommer de l'alcool ou des drogues.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243540\" data-originallang=\"en\">Pendant environ 20 ou 30 ans, \u00e0 ma connaissance, l'usage voulait que si des policiers tombaient, dans le cadre de leur service normal, sur des individus qui \u00e9taient soumis \u00e0 un engagement, \u00e0 une ordonnance de probation ou \u00e0 une ordonnance de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, notamment aux conditions mentionn\u00e9es pr\u00e9c\u00e9demment, et qu'ils soup\u00e7onnaient que ces individus ne respectaient pas ces conditions, les policiers exigeaient un \u00e9chantillon d'urine, en g\u00e9n\u00e9ral, ou parfois de sang. Si l'analyse de l'\u00e9chantillon r\u00e9v\u00e9lait la pr\u00e9sence d'alcool ou de drogues, les policiers portaient une accusation contre l'individu pour inobservation de l'engagement, des conditions de la probation ou des conditions de la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle. Le tribunal \u00e9tait alors saisi de l'affaire et les r\u00e9sultats de l'analyse de l'\u00e9chantillon constituaient la preuve principale contre l'individu.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243541\" data-originallang=\"en\">Autour de 2004, l'affaire Shoker s'est retrouv\u00e9e devant les tribunaux sur une accusation de manquement aux conditions de la probation. Pour la premi\u00e8re fois au Canada, l'avocat de la d\u00e9fense a fait valoir qu'aucune autorit\u00e9 dans nos lois criminelles ne permettait aux policiers d'exiger des \u00e9chantillons. M\u00eame si des accus\u00e9s, reconnus coupables dans la plupart des cas, avaient probablement enfreint les conditions de leur probation ou de leur lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, les policiers n'avaient aucun moyen d'exiger ce qui \u00e9tait en fait la preuve dont ils avaient besoin.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243542\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je le r\u00e9p\u00e8te, on a constat\u00e9 que, effectivement, les policiers n'avaient pas l'autorit\u00e9 requise pour exiger des \u00e9chantillons. L'affaire s'est rendue en cour d'appel, puis \u00e0 la Cour supr\u00eame du Canada. Toutes deux ont confirm\u00e9 que la police n'avait pas le pouvoir d'agir de la sorte et que cette pratique devait cesser \u00e0 moins que le gouvernement f\u00e9d\u00e9ral ne mette en place des dispositions au sein du Code criminel et un syst\u00e8me pour g\u00e9rer le traitement des \u00e9chantillons. Et cette pratique a effectivement cess\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243543\" data-originallang=\"en\">R\u00e9sultat: les forces polici\u00e8res ressentent beaucoup de frustration. Si des agents de police ont de tr\u00e8s bons motifs de croire qu'un d\u00e9linquant a enfreint ces conditions, c'est-\u00e0-dire l'interdiction de consommer de l'alcool ou des drogues, ils ne sont pas autoris\u00e9s \u00e0 agir. \u00c0 moins qu'ils ne surprennent le d\u00e9linquant en train de consommer de l'alcool ou des drogues, ce qui n'arrive que rarement, ils ne disposent d'aucun moyen efficace de prouver que le d\u00e9linquant a viol\u00e9 les conditions de sa lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle. Ils doivent fermer les yeux et le laisser partir.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243544\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je veux insister sur l'importance de ce que tout cela a signifi\u00e9 \u00e0 un \u00e9gard. Il y a quelques ann\u00e9es, en tentant de contrer les gangs de rue, le chef de police Blair de Toronto, le chef de police d'Halifax plus r\u00e9cemment, et, si je ne m'abuse, celui de Calgary aussi, ont accus\u00e9 des personnes dont ils avaient de bons motifs de croire qu'elles faisaient partie d'un gang de rue, souvent un gang de rue violent. Dans la plupart des cas, ces personnes obtiennent une lib\u00e9ration sous caution, mais sous ces conditions. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243545\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les forces polici\u00e8res ciblent des quartiers pr\u00e9cis de leur ville. Ils surveillent chaque jour les d\u00e9linquants assujettis \u00e0 ces conditions, particuli\u00e8rement s'ils doivent respecter un couvre-feu. Si ces derniers ont enfreint les conditions dont est assorti cet engagement, les forces polici\u00e8res porteront des accusations contre eux et, dans la plupart des cas, les emprisonneront jusqu'\u00e0 leur proc\u00e8s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243546\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cette mesure s'est r\u00e9v\u00e9l\u00e9e fort efficace. Il y a des quartiers de la ville de Toronto que je connais bien, dont deux en particulier o\u00f9, gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 cette mesure, le taux de criminalit\u00e9 parmi les gangs de jeunes a diminu\u00e9 de 30, 40 et 50 p. 100. Nous n'avons aucun moyen de le prouver, mais nous pouvons avancer que, si Shoker n'avait pas pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 une demande et que le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a> \u00e9tait en vigueur, elle donnerait de bien meilleurs r\u00e9sultats encore. Dans les cas o\u00f9 des agents de police ont de bons motifs de croire qu'un d\u00e9linquant a enfreint l\u2019interdiction de consommer des drogues ou de l\u2019alcool dont est assortie l'ordonnance d'engagement qu'il a sign\u00e9, ils n'ont aucun moyen de l'accuser parce qu'ils n'ont pas de preuve.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243547\" data-originallang=\"en\">On avait avanc\u00e9 l'hypoth\u00e8se, dans un d\u00e9bat pr\u00e9c\u00e9dent sur la question, que le nombre de cas dans lesquels la police avait \u00e9t\u00e9 incapable d'inculper les contrevenants au cours des cinq ou six derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es se chiffrait par milliers. Voil\u00e0 encore une question que le gouvernement n'a pas jug\u00e9e assez importante pour s'en occuper, mais elle a certes \u00e9t\u00e9 tr\u00e8s importante pour nos policiers de premi\u00e8re ligne. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243548\" data-originallang=\"en\">Permettez-moi de revenir \u00e0 la d\u00e9cision de la Cour supr\u00eame. Le besoin d'un cadre r\u00e9gissant la fa\u00e7on dont les \u00e9chantillons seront exig\u00e9s, trait\u00e9s, puis d\u00e9truits a \u00e9t\u00e9 tr\u00e8s clairement \u00e9tabli. Je reconnais que le gouvernement a r\u00e9pondu \u00e0 ce besoin, ce qui est quelque peu surprenant quand on pense \u00e0 certaines de ses fa\u00e7ons de faire relativement aux projets de loi sur la criminalit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243549\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le gouvernement a clairement indiqu\u00e9, sans doute parce que la Cour supr\u00eame aurait un jour statu\u00e9 sur ce point, que les \u00e9chantillons ne peuvent servir qu'aux fins de la preuve du non-respect des conditions. Ils ne peuvent servir \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard d'aucune autre accusation au criminel.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243550\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela est important pour qu'il soit bien clair, aux yeux de la population canadienne en g\u00e9n\u00e9ral, que nous comprenons, que les tribunaux comprennent et que l'appareil de justice p\u00e9nale comprend que le fait d'exiger un \u00e9chantillon de substances corporelles empi\u00e8te sur les droits g\u00e9n\u00e9raux \u00e0 la vie priv\u00e9e de la personne en question. Il faut donc \u00eatre tr\u00e8s prudents, et la Cour supr\u00eame l'a bien dit dans la d\u00e9cision qu'elle a rendue, maintenant la d\u00e9cision de l'instance inf\u00e9rieure. C'\u00e9tait sa raison d'\u00eatre principale. Elle y disait que cela constitue une importante immixtion dans la vie priv\u00e9e des particuliers.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243551\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je veux que l'on sache que ceci n'a rien \u00e0 voir avec la qualit\u00e9 du travail du policier moyen. Il arrivait cependant que des policiers trop z\u00e9l\u00e9s ou qui abusaient de leurs pouvoirs aient des exigences exag\u00e9r\u00e9es. La cour veut donc qu'il soit bien clair que, si des \u00e9chantillons sont exig\u00e9s, il le sont \u00e0 des fins tr\u00e8s limit\u00e9es, et seulement \u00e0 ces fins, en conformit\u00e9 avec une ordonnance judiciaire, un engagement ou des conditions de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, ce qui r\u00e9duit le risque d'exigences d\u00e9raisonnables ou abusives.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243552\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cette disposition se trouve dans le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a> et elle est conforme au libell\u00e9 comme \u00e0 l'esprit de la d\u00e9cision de la Cour supr\u00eame dans l'affaire <em>R. c. Shoker</em>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243553\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'aimerais \u00e9galement pr\u00e9ciser que le projet de loi porte sur les trois diff\u00e9rents points pour lesquels on y a recours. J'ai d\u00e9j\u00e0 parl\u00e9 de l'engagement. La majorit\u00e9 des cas pour lesquels les policiers auront recours \u00e0 cette disposition porteront probablement sur l'engagement. Je le r\u00e9p\u00e8te, une personne accus\u00e9e qui n'a pas encore \u00e9t\u00e9 reconnue coupable ou innocent\u00e9e et qui d\u00e9sire garder sa libert\u00e9 en attendant son proc\u00e8s doit signer un engagement qui constitue en r\u00e9alit\u00e9 une ordonnance d'un tribunal. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243554\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ces engagements contiennent des dispositions assez similaires d'un bout \u00e0 l'autre du pays. L'interdiction de consommer de l\u2019alcool et des drogues est tr\u00e8s courante, tout comme celle d'entrer en contact avec certaines personnes. Il est \u00e9galement tr\u00e8s courant que ces personnes doivent promettre de respecter un couvre-feu entre certaines heures, de ne pas sortir de la maison, de rester chez elles et d'avoir un domicile fixe. Ce sont les dispositions les plus courantes auxquelles je peux penser. Celle qui porte sur la consommation d'alcool et de drogues est tr\u00e8s importante. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243555\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il est difficile de parler de cette situation sans mentionner les m\u00e9thodes utilis\u00e9es \u00e0 New York dans le but de r\u00e9duire le nombre de crimes. Le chef de police de la ville, mais aussi le maire Giuliani, ont beaucoup insist\u00e9 sur ce point. Il y a aussi d'autres villes am\u00e9ricaines et m\u00eame certaines villes canadiennes en raison du gouvernement actuel, o\u00f9 l'on a recours \u00e0 des mesures l\u00e9gislatives pour lutter contre les taux \u00e9lev\u00e9s de criminalit\u00e9. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243556\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il a \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9montr\u00e9, par bon nombre d'\u00e9tudes men\u00e9es aux \u00c9tats-Unis et quelques-unes au Canada, que le recours \u00e0 des mesures l\u00e9gislatives est g\u00e9n\u00e9ralement beaucoup moins efficace pour r\u00e9duire le taux de criminalit\u00e9 que le recours \u00e0 des tactiques de ce genre. J'ai parl\u00e9 des mesures qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 prises par le chef Blair \u00e0 Toronto et de celles que le chef de police de Halifax utilise actuellement. Je crois qu'il y a \u00e9galement d'autres chefs qui ont fait de m\u00eame. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243557\" data-originallang=\"en\">La ville de New York s'est d'abord attaqu\u00e9e aux crimes de moindre importance. On a entre autres entendu parler de nettoyage de graffitis. La ville s'est \u00e9galement attaqu\u00e9e aux cas de bris de conditions souvent attribuables \u00e0 la consommation d'alcool et de drogues. Je le r\u00e9p\u00e8te, un grand nombre de mesures ont \u00e9t\u00e9 prises \u00e0 Toronto. Ces op\u00e9rations ont eu lieu dans tous les coins de la ville. Ceux qui se faisaient prendre \u00e0 consommer de l'alcool ou des drogues alors qu'ils n'avaient pas le droit de le faire en vertu de l'engagement qu'ils avaient pris \u00e9taient renvoy\u00e9s en prison. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243558\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela a eu pour effet de faire chuter le taux de crimes graves, dans le cas du trafic de drogues et des crimes violents, par exemple, parce que les contrevenants \u00e9taient incarc\u00e9r\u00e9s et que, de ce fait, ils \u00e9taient hors d'\u00e9tat de nuire. Je ne parle pas ici du taux des infractions pour graffiti ou pour consommation de drogues illicites. Cela a aussi fait comprendre \u00e0 ces criminels qu'ils ne seraient plus tol\u00e9r\u00e9s \u00e0 New York et qu'ils se feraient prendre s'ils commettaient ce type de d\u00e9lit.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243559\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela renvoie \u00e0 tout ce que j'ai appris en tant qu'\u00e9tudiant en droit, en tant qu'avocat et \u00e0 ce que je continue d'apprendre dans mon travail de d\u00e9put\u00e9. Cela confirme \u00e0 tout coup que nous pourrions avoir une soci\u00e9t\u00e9 s\u00fbre, la plus s\u00fbre possible, si nous indiquions aux criminels -- les personnes \u00e0 ce point asociales qu'elles commettent des crimes --, et si nous leur faisions bien comprendre qu'on les attrapera s'ils commettent ce type de d\u00e9lit. Dans une soci\u00e9t\u00e9 o\u00f9 la grande majorit\u00e9 des crimes seraient signal\u00e9s et les criminels poursuivis, le taux de criminalit\u00e9 diminuerait et les citoyens seraient prot\u00e9g\u00e9s. Voil\u00e0 la responsabilit\u00e9 fondamentale qui nous incombe en tant que parlementaires.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243560\" data-originallang=\"en\">Parce que nous avons failli \u00e0 cette t\u00e2che au cours des quatre ou cinq derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es, le nombre de crimes a augment\u00e9. Si nous avions r\u00e9ussi, les criminels auraient compris qu'ils auraient \u00e0 subir les cons\u00e9quences de leurs actes et qu'ils pourraient \u00eatre incarc\u00e9r\u00e9s et, de ce fait, incapables de r\u00e9cidiver. Voil\u00e0 ce qui justifie cette mesure.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243561\" data-originallang=\"en\">L'autre point que je tiens \u00e0 aborder concerne les personnes reconnues coupables de d\u00e9lit, qu'elles fassent l'objet d'une ordonnance de probation \u00e9mise par un tribunal provincial ou d'une ordonnance de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle \u00e9mise par les autorit\u00e9s correctionnelles f\u00e9d\u00e9rales. Il est essentiel que les travailleurs sociaux et les agents des services correctionnels, qui sont charg\u00e9s de superviser les contrevenants lib\u00e9r\u00e9s sous condition ou qui font l'objet d'une ordonnance de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, aient le droit d'exiger de ces personnes qu'elles fournissent des \u00e9chantillons de substances corporelles et d'utiliser ces \u00e9chantillons.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243562\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est un excellent moyen de faire comprendre \u00e0 ces gens qu'on les suit activement et qu'on ne veut plus qu'ils commettent de crimes. C'est le message qu'on veut envoyer \u00e0 ceux qui sont remis en libert\u00e9 apr\u00e8s avoir purg\u00e9 une peine de prison: les autorit\u00e9s vous ont \u00e0 l'oeil. Et s'ils sont vis\u00e9s par une ordonnance qui leur interdit de consommer de l'alcool ou de la drogue et que les personnes qui doivent assurer leur surveillance d\u00e9couvrent ou soup\u00e7onnent qu'ils ont d\u00e9sob\u00e9i, elles pourront exiger des \u00e9chantillons. Et s'il s'av\u00e8re que l'ordonnance n'a effectivement pas \u00e9t\u00e9 suivie, des accusations seront port\u00e9es. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243563\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est le fait, pour les agents correctionnels, de savoir que ce moyen s'offre \u00e0 eux qui rendra leur travail de surveillance et de supervision beaucoup plus facile. Ce n'est pas le seul facteur \u00e0 entrer en ligne de compte, mais disons que c'est le principal. Il est beaucoup plus facile de faire appliquer une ordonnance de probation et les conditions de remise en libert\u00e9 qui y sont assorties quand on sait qu'on peut toujours faire part de ses soup\u00e7ons \u00e0 la police et demander qu'un \u00e9chantillon soit pr\u00e9lev\u00e9 en vertu des dispositions du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30</a>. Si la personne vis\u00e9e a bel et bien d\u00e9rog\u00e9 aux conditions qui lui \u00e9taient impos\u00e9es, des accusations seront port\u00e9es contre elle. \u00c7a va faciliter de beaucoup la t\u00e2che de ceux qui sont cens\u00e9s la surveiller. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243564\" data-originallang=\"en\">Une question s'impose maintenant: combien de gens, parmi ceux qui sont en probation, ne se font pas prendre \u00e0 temps et s'\u00e9cartent du droit chemin en commettant des crimes encore plus graves? On n'en sait rien. Selon ce que m'ont dit certains coll\u00e8gues qui ont d\u00e9j\u00e0 travaill\u00e9 dans le domaine, on parle de milliers de cas. On peut donc supposer que, si cette mesure avait \u00e9t\u00e9 en vigueur, un tr\u00e8s grand nombre de crimes auraient pu \u00eatre \u00e9vit\u00e9s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243565\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ce projet de loi va \u00eatre adopt\u00e9 par la Chambre d\u00e8s aujourd'hui, puis envoy\u00e9 au S\u00e9nat. Esp\u00e9rons que les s\u00e9nateurs ne retarderont pas ind\u00fbment le processus et que les tribunaux pourront en invoquer les dispositions d'ici quelques semaines.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-2/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664858",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:30:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243566\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his explanation of the importance of the bill.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243567\" data-originallang=\"en\">Under proposed subsection 732.1(12), the Governor in Council may make regulations specifically related to a number of sections; and subsection 732.1(8), where regulations are prescribed, I find very interesting. It says:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243568\" data-originallang=\"en\"> ...subject to the regulations, the Attorney General of a province or the minister of justice of a territory shall, with respect to the province or territory, </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243569\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (a) designate the persons or classes of persons that may take samples of bodily substances; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243570\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (b) designate the places or classes of places at which the samples are to be taken; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243571\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (c) specify the manner in which the samples are to be taken; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243572\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (d) specify the manner in which the samples are to be analyzed; (e) specify the manner in which the samples are to be stored, handled and destroyed; </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243573\" data-originallang=\"en\">The list goes on. It really begs the question about these sections with regard to how things may be done, that they would be imposed on provincial jurisdictions that already have in place methods of taking substances, approved through their own legislation, as well as trained and designated people. They have already done this, but federal legislation would now ask the entire country to conform to this. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243574\" data-originallang=\"en\">It raises for me the question of what kind of costs would be involved to coordinate the entire country for these specific regulations and designations, what training would be required, and what codifications would have to be done.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243575\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is a naive question on my part, but it would appear to me that this is one of the problems we have in our criminal justice system, that we tend to make the system more complicated and probably provide more latitude for appeals on various cases simply because of the intense detail to the smallest details that are given in legislation such as this.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243566\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je remercie le d\u00e9put\u00e9 d'avoir expliqu\u00e9 l'importance du projet de loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243567\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le gouverneur en conseil peut prendre des r\u00e8glements li\u00e9s sp\u00e9cifiquement \u00e0 un certain nombre d'articles en vertu du paragraphe 731.1(12) et quand cela est prescrit, en vertu du paragraphe 732.1(8). Je trouve cela int\u00e9ressant. Le projet de loi stipule: </p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243568\" data-originallang=\"en\"> [...] sous r\u00e9serve des r\u00e8glements, \u00e0 l\u2019\u00e9gard d\u2019une province ou d\u2019un territoire donn\u00e9, le procureur g\u00e9n\u00e9ral de la province ou le ministre de la justice du territoire: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243569\" data-originallang=\"en\"> a) d\u00e9signe les personnes ou les cat\u00e9gories de personnes qui peuvent pr\u00e9lever des \u00e9chantillons de substances corporelles; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243570\" data-originallang=\"en\"> b) d\u00e9signe les lieux ou les cat\u00e9gories de lieux de pr\u00e9l\u00e8vement des \u00e9chantillons; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243571\" data-originallang=\"en\"> c) pr\u00e9cise les modalit\u00e9s de pr\u00e9l\u00e8vement des \u00e9chantillons; </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243572\" data-originallang=\"en\"> d) pr\u00e9cise les modalit\u00e9s d\u2019analyse des \u00e9chantillons; e) pr\u00e9cise les modalit\u00e9s d\u2019entreposage, de manipulation et de destruction des \u00e9chantillons; </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243573\" data-originallang=\"en\">La liste se poursuit. On peut vraiment se demander pourquoi on veut imposer aux provinces ces dispositions qui leur expliquent comment agir quand elles ont d\u00e9j\u00e0 des m\u00e9thodes pour le pr\u00e9l\u00e8vement de substances, qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 approuv\u00e9es dans le cadre de leur l\u00e9gislation, et qu'elles ont d\u00e9j\u00e0 d\u00e9sign\u00e9 et form\u00e9 des personnes pour s'en occuper. Les provinces ont d\u00e9j\u00e0 leurs propres mesures, mais le gouvernement f\u00e9d\u00e9ral voudrait que tout le pays se conforme \u00e0 sa mesure l\u00e9gislative.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243574\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela m'am\u00e8ne \u00e0 me demander les co\u00fbts qui seraient engendr\u00e9s par l'uniformisation de ces r\u00e8gles et de ces d\u00e9signations dans l'ensemble du pays, la formation qui serait n\u00e9cessaire et les codifications \u00e0 lesquelles il faudrait proc\u00e9der.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243575\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est une question na\u00efve de ma part, mais il me semble que c'est l'un des probl\u00e8mes que nous avons avec notre syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale. Nous avons tendance \u00e0 compliquer le syst\u00e8me et \u00e0 accro\u00eetre probablement les possibilit\u00e9s d'appel \u00e0 cause de l'attention intense port\u00e9e \u00e0 tous les petits d\u00e9tails dans des mesures l\u00e9gislatives comme celle-ci.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/paul-szabo-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/paul-szabo/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3198/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664870",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:35:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243576\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, my colleague's question does highlight a valid concern, although I have to say, one that I do not think is applicable here. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243577\" data-originallang=\"en\">I just want to confirm what we have seen so many times with this government, of doing the photo ops on crime bills and then dumping the responsibility and the cost onto the provinces, with no cost-sharing arrangements at all. We are seeing that repeatedly, especially with regard to the rates of incarceration and how many billions of dollars that will cost the provincial levels of government.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243578\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, in this particular case, as I said earlier in my speech, we had been doing this; the samples were being taken up until 2004 or 2005. So the system was in place across the country. The laboratories to which the samples were sent were already on contract. Most of them are private. They are not government agencies. So that system was already there. It has been languishing, but it is still being used for other purposes, because we take samples in any number of other ways. But that forensic skill is certainly in the country. We have been spending less money on it at the provincial level because we have not been able to take the samples, because we have not been able to use them. So there will be an increase in cost, but it is costs that the provinces were running, up to about five years ago.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243579\" data-originallang=\"en\">I will make one final point, though. It is, I believe, a benefit to people who are accused that we have national standards. I am assuming and I certainly would expect that those regulations would set those national standards. I have to assume as well that they may not have always been met in the past, so we will now have national standards, which will make it much easier for our prosecutors, when they take those samples into court, to convince a judge that they are valid, that they have been done properly because they have met the national standards, and the conviction will pretty well always flow from it.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243576\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, la question du d\u00e9put\u00e9 est l\u2019expression d\u2019une pr\u00e9occupation justifi\u00e9e. Cependant, je dois dire que celle-ci ne se justifie pas en l\u2019occurrence.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243577\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je tiens seulement \u00e0 rappeler un comportement r\u00e9current du gouvernement qui se pla\u00eet \u00e0 pr\u00e9senter des projets de loi sur la criminalit\u00e9 pour profiter des s\u00e9ances de photo connexes, mais qui par la suite en transf\u00e8re la responsabilit\u00e9 et les co\u00fbts aux provinces, sans aucune entente de partage des co\u00fbts. Nous avons assist\u00e9 \u00e0 cette man\u0153uvre \u00e0 maintes reprises, en particulier en ce qui concerne les taux d\u2019incarc\u00e9ration et les milliards de dollars qui devront \u00eatre d\u00e9bours\u00e9s par les gouvernements provinciaux.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243578\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cependant, dans le cas qui nous occupe, comme je l\u2019ai mentionn\u00e9 au d\u00e9but de mon expos\u00e9, nous avions d\u00e9j\u00e0 mis en place une telle mesure. En effet, des \u00e9chantillons ont \u00e9t\u00e9 pr\u00e9lev\u00e9s jusqu\u2019en 2004 ou 2005. Un tel syst\u00e8me avait d\u00e9j\u00e0 \u00e9t\u00e9 mis en place d\u2019un bout \u00e0 l\u2019autre du pays. Les laboratoires \u00e0 qui les \u00e9chantillons \u00e9taient soumis \u00e9taient d\u00e9j\u00e0 sous contrat. La plupart d'entre eux sont des entreprises priv\u00e9es. Il ne s\u2019agit pas d\u2019organismes gouvernementaux. Le syst\u00e8me \u00e9tait donc d\u00e9j\u00e0 en place. Depuis, il tourne au ralenti, mais il a \u00e9t\u00e9 utilis\u00e9 \u00e0 d\u2019autres fins. En effet, nous pr\u00e9levons divers autres types d\u2019\u00e9chantillons. Dans les faits, le pays poss\u00e8de d\u00e9j\u00e0 une capacit\u00e9 d\u2019analyse judiciaire. Nous avons investi moins d\u2019argent dans cette capacit\u00e9 \u00e0 l\u2019\u00e9chelon provincial, car nous n\u2019\u00e9tions pas en mesure de pr\u00e9lever les \u00e9chantillons, pas plus que nous ne pouvions les utiliser. Il y aura donc une augmentation des co\u00fbts, mais il s\u2019agit de co\u00fbts qui existaient d\u00e9j\u00e0 pour les provinces jusqu\u2019\u00e0 il y a cinq ans environ.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243579\" data-originallang=\"en\"> J\u2019ai une derni\u00e8re chose \u00e0 dire cependant. Des normes nationales sont tout \u00e0 l\u2019avantage des personnes qui sont accus\u00e9es. Je pr\u00e9sume que ces r\u00e8glements permettraient de d\u00e9finir de telles normes nationales. Je m\u2019y attendrais. Je dois \u00e9galement pr\u00e9sumer que ces normes n\u2019ont pas toujours \u00e9t\u00e9 suivies par le pass\u00e9. Dor\u00e9navant, nous disposerons vraiment de normes nationales qui simplifieront le travail de nos procureurs, car lorsqu\u2019ils pr\u00e9senteront ces \u00e9chantillons en cour, il sera plus facile de convaincre le juge qu\u2019il s\u2019agit de preuves valables et qu\u2019ils ont \u00e9t\u00e9 pr\u00e9lev\u00e9s correctement, conform\u00e9ment aux normes nationales. Il en d\u00e9coulera pratiquement toujours une condamnation.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-3/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664874",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:35:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Niki Ashton (Churchill, NDP)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243580\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, my colleague has provided an in-depth analysis of why this piece of legislation is so critical. I am familiar with this great work and how he has provided feedback on this incessant crime and punishment agenda from the government. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243581\" data-originallang=\"en\">I would like to ask him what his thoughts are as to why such a useful and critical piece of legislation took so long to come forward from the government. What could possibly be going on when the government claims to be committed to cutting back on crime and the usual phrases it uses, but when it comes to actually bringing forward useful and effective legislation, we are just simply not seeing that? I would like to ask for his thoughts on that.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243580\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, mon coll\u00e8gue a analys\u00e9 en profondeur la raison pour laquelle le projet de loi est si essentiel. Je me suis familiaris\u00e9e avec son excellent travail et les commentaires qu'il fait sur le programme en mati\u00e8re de crime et de ch\u00e2timent que nous rab\u00e2che sans cesse le gouvernement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243581\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'aimerais qu'il nous dise pourquoi le gouvernement a pris tant de temps \u00e0 pr\u00e9senter une mesure si utile et si essentielle. Qu'est-ce qui explique que le gouvernement pr\u00e9tend \u00eatre d\u00e9termin\u00e9 \u00e0 s'attaquer \u00e0 la criminalit\u00e9, pour ne citer qu'un de ses slogans habituels, alors qu'il ne pr\u00e9sente aucune mesure utile et efficace en la mati\u00e8re? J'aimerais que le d\u00e9put\u00e9 nous dise ce qu'il pense de cela.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/niki-ashton-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/niki-ashton/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/942/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664878",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:35:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243582\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to say this, but there does not seem to be any other explanation. We have known for over five years, because it precedes the Supreme Court of Canada decision, and it was quite obvious what was going to happen when Shoker got to the Supreme Court of Canada from the Court of Appeal. So there was a lot of time for the government to do this. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243583\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, there are no obvious victims. We cannot point to an obvious victim, because what is really being said is that if this law had been in effect, this person would not have been a victim. We cannot go and find that person because there is just no way of doing that. The Conservative Party needs those photo ops for the <a data-HoCid=\"105824\" href=\"/politicians/rob-nicholson/\" title=\"Rob Nicholson\">Minister of Justice</a> or the <a data-HoCid=\"147112\" href=\"/politicians/vic-toews/\" title=\"Vic Toews\">Minister of Public Safety</a> to trot out, and it just did not have them. So this one gets pushed down to the bottom, even though if we were to ask the police officer on the street or the corrections officer, they would have wanted this right near the top to be dealt with very rapidly.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243584\" data-originallang=\"en\"> This is the second time this bill has been before the House. We had the election and it was knocked off the order paper. We had prorogation twice and it was knocked off the order paper. However, other bills have gone ahead. We have had 50 or 60 crime bills in the five years. We did not need them, but this one was always pushed down, because again, the Conservatives did not have that photo op. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243585\" data-originallang=\"en\">I want to be very clear on this. When the Conservative government had to make a decision over which bills they were going to proceed with, they did it on an individual basis. Of those 50 or 60 bills that we have had, including quite frankly some of the private members' bills from the Conservatives, we could have brought almost all of those into two or three omnibus bills. That would have used up a lot less time in this House and more effectively dealt with a number of issues that do exist within the Criminal Code and the criminal justice system. We could have used omnibus bills to do that.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243586\" data-originallang=\"en\">This next bill that we have right after this debate, Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, is a classic example of that. There are at least three other bills that have either gone through or are coming that should have all been combined around this one issue, and we can just repeat that over and over again.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243587\" data-originallang=\"en\">That would not have allowed the government have those photo ops. It has to have an individual bill on every section of the Criminal Code, at the rate the government is going. If we do not have that, then too bad, it is no longer a priority for the government and is just dropped.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243582\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, ce n'est pas facile \u00e0 dire, mais il semble n'y avoir aucune autre explication. Cela fait plus de cinq ans que nous savons qu'il y a un probl\u00e8me, parce qu'il existait m\u00eame avant que la Cour supr\u00eame ne rende sa d\u00e9cision; on savait tr\u00e8s bien ce qui allait se passer quand la Cour d'appel renverrait l'affaire <em>Shoker</em> \u00e0 la Cour supr\u00eame du Canada. Le gouvernement a eu amplement le temps d'agir.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243583\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il n'y a pas de victime \u00e9vidente, cependant. On ne peut nommer une victime \u00e9vidente, parce que ce qu'on affirme, c'est que si la loi avait \u00e9t\u00e9 en vigueur, la personne n'aurait pas \u00e9t\u00e9 une victime. On ne peut aller la chercher parce qu'il n'y a pas moyen de le faire. Le Parti conservateur avait besoin de belles photos mettant en valeur le <a data-HoCid=\"105824\" href=\"/politicians/rob-nicholson/\" title=\"Rob Nicholson\">ministre de la Justice</a> ou le <a data-HoCid=\"147112\" href=\"/politicians/vic-toews/\" title=\"Vic Toews\">ministre de la S\u00e9curit\u00e9 publique</a>, mais il n'en avait pas. Alors il a rel\u00e9gu\u00e9 la mesure au bas de la liste de priorit\u00e9s, m\u00eame si les agents de police et les agents de correction auraient voulu qu'il s'en occupe en priorit\u00e9 et l'adopte rapidement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243584\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est la deuxi\u00e8me fois que la Chambre est saisie de ce projet de loi. Il est mort au <em>Feuilleton</em> une fois en raison des \u00e9lections et deux fois en raison d'une prorogation. Pourtant, d'autres projets de loi ont pass\u00e9 toutes les \u00e9tapes du processus. En fait, au cours des cinq derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es, nous avons \u00e9tudi\u00e9 50 ou 60 projets de loi sur la criminalit\u00e9 dont nous n'avions m\u00eame pas besoin. Pourtant, celui-ci a toujours \u00e9t\u00e9 rel\u00e9gu\u00e9 au bas de la liste de priorit\u00e9, parce qu'il ne s'ins\u00e9rait dans aucune des op\u00e9rations de relations publiques organis\u00e9es par les conservateurs.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243585\" data-originallang=\"en\">Que ce soit clair. Le gouvernement conservateur a \u00e9tabli l'ordre de priorit\u00e9 des projets de loi qu'il voulait pr\u00e9senter au cas par cas. Nous aurions pu rassembler les 50 ou 60 projets de loi que nous avons \u00e9tudi\u00e9s \u2014 dont plusieurs projets de loi d'initiative parlementaire pr\u00e9sent\u00e9s par des conservateurs \u2014 en deux ou trois projets de loi omnibus. Cela aurait non seulement fait \u00e9conomiser beaucoup de temps \u00e0 la Chambre, mais nous aurait permis de r\u00e9pondre plus ad\u00e9quatement \u00e0 certaines lacunes dans le Code criminel et le syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale. Nous aurions pu utiliser des projets de loi omnibus \u00e0 cette fin.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243586\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le prochain article \u00e0 l'ordre du jour, le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, illustre parfaitement ce que je viens de dire. Il y a au moins trois autres projets de loi que nous avons \u00e9tudi\u00e9s ou que nous allons \u00e9tudier qui portent sur le m\u00eame sujet et qui auraient d\u00fb \u00eatre rassembl\u00e9s dans un seul projet de loi. Ce n'est qu'un exemple parmi tant d'autres.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243587\" data-originallang=\"en\">Or, le gouvernement aurait d\u00fb renoncer \u00e0 toutes ces s\u00e9ances photo. Au rythme o\u00f9 il va, le gouvernement pr\u00e9sentera un projet de loi distinct pour chaque article du Code criminel. Si le projet de loi ne s'ins\u00e8re pas dans une op\u00e9ration de relations publiques, alors tant pis, ce n'est plus une priorit\u00e9 pour le gouvernement et il est rel\u00e9gu\u00e9 au bas de la liste de priorit\u00e9.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-4/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664881",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Dean Del Mastro (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, CPC)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243588\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. The member mentioned an omnibus bill. I seem to remember one that we had, protecting victims from violent crime. I remember the shrill of the NDP that we brought an omnibus bill on crime and how they opposed that. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243589\" data-originallang=\"en\">The other thing the member spoke about was the provinces. I do not know if the member understands that people were gaming the provinces, for example, on pretrial custody. The provinces supported us putting an end to two-for-one and three-for-one credits in the provinces. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243590\" data-originallang=\"en\">How many mandatory minimums can the member point out to this House whereby it would not put incarcerated offenders into the federal system as opposed to the provincial system? I would love to hear his list.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243588\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est int\u00e9ressant, monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident. Le d\u00e9put\u00e9 a mentionn\u00e9 un projet de loi omnibus. Je crois me souvenir d'un tel projet de loi que nous avons pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 pour prot\u00e9ger les personnes des crimes avec violence. Je me souviens des cris per\u00e7ants du NPD devant la pr\u00e9sentation d'un projet de loi omnibus sur la criminalit\u00e9 et je me souviens que ce parti s'y \u00e9tait oppos\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243589\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le d\u00e9put\u00e9 a \u00e9galement mentionn\u00e9 les provinces. J'ignore s'il comprend que les gens abusaient des provinces, par exemple, avec la d\u00e9tention avant proc\u00e8s. Les provinces appuyaient notre volont\u00e9 de mettre fin au calcul en double ou en triple du temps de d\u00e9tention avant proc\u00e8s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243590\" data-originallang=\"en\">Combien le d\u00e9put\u00e9 peut-il mentionner de peines minimales qui enverraient des d\u00e9linquants dans le syst\u00e8me provincial plut\u00f4t que dans le syst\u00e8me f\u00e9d\u00e9ral? J'aimerais bien conna\u00eetre sa liste.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/dean-del-mastro-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/dean-del-mastro/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/392/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664888",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243591\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, if the member knew what he was talking about, he would look at this. In fact, between 80% and 90% of the mandatory minimums that we have passed or are coming are two years or less. Those are all provincial incarcerations. We are going to increase the incarceration rate at the provincial level by 100%.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243591\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, si le d\u00e9put\u00e9 savait de quoi il parle, il saurait qu'entre 80 et 90 p. 100 des peines minimales obligatoires d\u00e9j\u00e0 institu\u00e9es ou pr\u00e9vues sont de deux ans ou moins, ce qui veut dire que les d\u00e9linquants vis\u00e9s iraient tous dans des p\u00e9nitenciers provinciaux. Nous allons augmenter le taux d'incarc\u00e9ration dans le syst\u00e8me provincial de 100 p. 100.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-5/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664891",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Pat Martin",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243592\" data-originallang=\"en\">Who is going to pay?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243592\" data-originallang=\"en\">Qui va payer, monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident?</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/pat-martin-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/pat-martin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/2515/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3665110",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243593\" data-originallang=\"en\">Yes, Mr. Speaker, who is going to pay? This government is not. It has not spent one dime helping the provinces in the cost of those prisons. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243594\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are going to increase the provincial incarceration rate by 100% and we are going to increase the federal incarceration rate by about 30% to 40%. Those are the facts.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243593\" data-originallang=\"en\">Qui va payer, en effet, monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident? Ce n'est pas le gouvernement f\u00e9d\u00e9ral. Il n'a pas d\u00e9bours\u00e9 dix sous pour aider les provinces \u00e0 payer le syst\u00e8me p\u00e9nitentiaire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243594\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous allons augmenter le taux d'incarc\u00e9ration dans les p\u00e9nitenciers provinciaux de 100 p. 100 et nous allons augmenter le taux d'incarc\u00e9ration dans les p\u00e9nitenciers f\u00e9d\u00e9raux de 30 \u00e0 40 p. 100. Ce sont des faits.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/joe-comartin-6/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/joe-comartin/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1444/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3665033",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Speaker",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243595\" data-originallang=\"en\">That concludes the debate on this bill. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243596\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Pursuant to order made Tuesday, December 7, 2010, Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30, An Act to amend the Criminal Code</a>, is deemed read a second time, deemed referred to a committee of the whole, deemed reported without amendment, deemed concurred in at report stage, and deemed read a third time and passed. </p>\n<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2\"> (Bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported without amendment, read the third time and passed) </p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243595\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela termine le d\u00e9bat sur le projet de loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243596\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Conform\u00e9ment \u00e0 l'ordre adopt\u00e9 le mardi 7 d\u00e9cembre 2010, le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4562516\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-30/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code\">C-30, Loi modifiant le Code criminel</a> est r\u00e9put\u00e9 lu une deuxi\u00e8me fois et renvoy\u00e9 \u00e0 un comit\u00e9 pl\u00e9nier, r\u00e9put\u00e9 avoir fait l'objet d'un rapport sans amendement, r\u00e9put\u00e9 adopt\u00e9 \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape du rapport et r\u00e9put\u00e9 lu une troisi\u00e8me fois et adopt\u00e9.</p>\n<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2\">(Le projet de loi est lu pour la deuxi\u00e8me fois, est \u00e9tudi\u00e9 en comit\u00e9, fait l'objet d'un rapport sans amendement, est lu pour la troisi\u00e8me fois et adopt\u00e9.)</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/the-speaker-3/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/peter-milliken/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3187/",
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "3664895",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Criminal Code",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2243597\">The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act</a>, as reported (with amendments) from the committee.</p>",
"fr": "<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2243597\">La Chambre reprend l'\u00e9tude du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6, Loi modifiant le Code criminel et une autre loi</a>, dont le comit\u00e9 a fait rapport avec des propositions d'amendement.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/procedural-2/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "p2243597",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Serious Time for the Most Serious Crime Act",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:40:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Speaker",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243598\" data-originallang=\"en\">There are three motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for the report stage of Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>. Motions Nos. 1 to 3 will be grouped for debate and voted upon according to the voting pattern available at the table. I will now submit Motions Nos. 1 to 3 to the House.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243598\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il y a trois motions d'amendement d'inscrites au <em>Feuilleton</em> pour l'\u00e9tude \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape du rapport du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>. Les motions n<sup>os</sup> 1 \u00e0 3 seront regroup\u00e9es pour le d\u00e9bat et le vote se d\u00e9roulera selon les modalit\u00e9s que l'on peut consulter au Bureau. Le d\u00e9bat porte maintenant sur les motions n<sup>os</sup> 1 \u00e0 3.</p>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/the-speaker-4/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/peter-milliken/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3187/",
"procedural": true,
"source_id": "3664897",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Serious Time for the Most Serious Crime Act",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Speaker's Ruling",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:45:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Bev Oda",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p class=\"procedural\" data-HoCid=\"2243599\"> moved:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243600\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion No. 1 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243601\" data-originallang=\"en\"> That Bill S-6 be amended by restoring Clause 1 as follows: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243602\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u201c1. This Act may be cited as the Serious Time for the Most Serious Crime Act.\u201d </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243603\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion No. 2 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243604\" data-originallang=\"en\"> That Bill S-6, in Clause 3, be amended by deleting the following after line 28 on page 3: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243605\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u201c(2.7) The 90-day time limits for the making of any application referred to in subsections (2.1) to (2.5) may be extended by the appropriate Chief Justice, or his or her designate, to a maximum of 180 days if the person, due to circumstances beyond their control, is unable to make an application within the 90-day time limit. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243606\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (2.7) If a person convicted of murder does not make an application under subsection (1) within the maximum time period allowed by this section, the Commissioner of Correctional Service Canada, or his or her designate, shall immediately notify in writing a parent, child, spouse or common-law partner of the victim that the convicted person did not make an application. If it is not possible to notify one of the aforementioned relatives, then the notification shall be given to another relative of the victim. The notification shall specify the next date on which the convicted person will be eligible to make an application under subsection (1).\u201d </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243607\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion No. 3 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243608\" data-originallang=\"en\"> That Bill S-6, in Clause 7, be amended </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243609\" data-originallang=\"en\"> a) by replacing line 9 on page 6 with the following: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243610\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u201c3(1), within 90 days after the end of two years\u201d </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243611\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (b) by replacing line 19 on page 6 with the following: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243612\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u201camended by subsection 3(1), within 90 days\u201d </p>\n</blockquote>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243599\" data-originallang=\"en\">propose:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243600\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion n<sup>o</sup> 1 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243601\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Que le projet de loi S-6 soit modifi\u00e9 par r\u00e9tablissement de l'article 1, dont le texte suit: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243602\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u00ab 1. Loi renfor\u00e7ant la s\u00e9v\u00e9rit\u00e9 des peines d'emprisonnement pour les crimes les plus graves. \u00bb </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243603\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion n<sup>o</sup> 2 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243604\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Que le projet de loi S-6, \u00e0 l'article 3, soit modifi\u00e9 par suppression, apr\u00e8s la ligne 30, page 3, de ce qui suit: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243605\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u00ab (2.7) Le d\u00e9lai de quatre-vingt-dix jours dont dispose la personne pour pr\u00e9senter l'un ou l'autre des demandes vis\u00e9e aux paragraphes (2.1) \u00e0 (2.5) peut \u00eatre port\u00e9 \u00e0 un maximum de cent quatre-vingts jours par le juge en chef comp\u00e9tent ou son rempla\u00e7ant si, en raison de circonstances ind\u00e9pendantes de sa volont\u00e9, cette personne n'est pas en mesure de pr\u00e9senter la demande dans le d\u00e9lai de quatre-vingt-dix jours. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243606\" data-originallang=\"en\"> (2.7) Si la personne d\u00e9clar\u00e9e coupable d'un meurtre ne pr\u00e9sente pas une demande en vertu du paragraphe (1) dans le d\u00e9lai maximal imparti au pr\u00e9sent article, le commissaire du Service correctionnel Canada ou son rempla\u00e7ant en avise aussit\u00f4t par \u00e9crit l'un des parents, l'enfant, l'\u00e9poux ou le conjoint de fait de la victime \u2014 ou, s'il est impossible de les aviser, un autre membre de sa famille \u2014 et pr\u00e9cise la date \u00e0 laquelle la personne d\u00e9clar\u00e9e coupable sera de nouveau admissible \u00e0 pr\u00e9senter une telle demande. \u00bb </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243607\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Motion n<sup>o</sup> 3 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243608\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Que le projet de loi S-6, \u00e0 l'article 7, soit modifi\u00e9 </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243609\" data-originallang=\"en\"> a) par substitution, \u00e0 la ligne 9, page 6, de ce qui suit: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243610\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u00ab par le paragraphe 3(1), dans les quatre-vingt- \u00bb </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243611\" data-originallang=\"en\"> b) par substitution, \u00e0 la ligne 24, page 6, de ce qui suit: </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243612\" data-originallang=\"en\"> \u00ab quatre-vingt-dix jours suivant l'expiration de \u00bb </p>\n</blockquote>"
},
"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/bev-oda-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/bev-oda/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/528/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3664999",
"h1": {
"en": "Government Orders",
"fr": ""
},
"h2": {
"en": "Serious Time for the Most Serious Crime Act",
"fr": ""
},
"h3": {
"en": "Motions in Amendment",
"fr": ""
},
"document_url": "/debates/2010/12/10/"
},
{
"time": "2010-12-10 10:45:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Brent Rathgeber (Edmonton\u2014St. Albert, CPC)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243613\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me to speak to Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, the most serious time for the most serious crime act, now that it has been reported back to the House by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, of which I am a member.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243614\" data-originallang=\"en\">This bill proposes to amend the Criminal Code to repeal the so-called faint hope clause or the faint hope regime for all future murderers and to tighten up the application procedure for those who have committed their crimes prior to this bill becoming law. Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> would achieve these goals in a balanced way, something that was recognized in the other place, where this bill was thoroughly and strongly examined and sent to the House without any amendments. However, I regret to say that the amendments adopted in the justice committee threaten to undermine the most important elements of Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> by reintroducing the very uncertainty that the bill was designed to overcome.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243615\" data-originallang=\"en\">Before going on, I note that the punishment for high treason and murder is life imprisonment without parole eligibility, set in accordance with section 745 of the Criminal Code. Thankfully, as there is no one serving time in Canada for treason, I will confine the remainder of my remarks to the offence of murder. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243616\" data-originallang=\"en\">As we know, there is an automatic 25-year parole ineligibility for first degree murder and for two categories of second degree murder. The period of ineligibility for parole for other categories of second degree murder is between 10 and 25 years, as determined by a sentencing judge and in accordance with section 745.4 of the Criminal Code.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243617\" data-originallang=\"en\">Despite these clear provisions, the faint hope regime in section 745.6 and the related provisions permits convicted murderers to seek an earlier parole eligibility date than the one to which they were originally sentenced. Since its inception in 1976, the faint hope clause has been a continuing source of controversy and has certainly been the object of derision by many victim groups in this country.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243618\" data-originallang=\"en\">The families and loved ones of murder victims are particularly affected as they often live in dread and uncertainty as to whether an offender will be bringing a faint hope application that will then force them to relive the tragic pain of their losses yet again. In recognition of such concerns, amendments were brought forward by a previous government in 1997 and 1999 to render post-1997 multiple murderers ineligible to apply for faint hope and to toughen the application procedures for all other murderers.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243619\" data-originallang=\"en\">Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> would build on these earlier initiatives by effectively repealing the right of all future murderers to apply for faint hope and by further toughening the application procedure. This is important. Barring future murderers from applying for faint hope would not only benefit the families and loved ones of victims but also protect society by keeping offenders in prison for the full time to which they are sentenced. What could be more reasonable than that?</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243620\" data-originallang=\"en\">As all hon. members will recall from past debates, the current application process has three stages: first, judicial screening to determine if an applicant has a reasonable prospect of success; second, a unanimous decision by a jury to reduce the applicant's parole ineligibility period; and three, an application for parole to the Parole Board of Canada. Allow me to highlight the key changes proposed by Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243621\" data-originallang=\"en\">First, applicants would have to meet a stricter test at stage one by showing a \u201csubstantial likelihood\u201d of success. This would screen out all less-meritorious applications. There would also be a longer statutory waiting period for re-application after unsuccessful applications, five years instead of the two at present. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243622\" data-originallang=\"en\">The House will undoubtedly know of the high profile case of Clifford Olson, who has been making repeated faint hope applications virtually every two years. In fact, one was just last week. All this has accomplished is to make the families of the victims of Mr. Olson relive the horror and terror every two years.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243623\" data-originallang=\"en\">Most important, Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> would impose a new 90-day window for offenders to apply, or reapply, under the faint hope regime once they have served 15 years.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243624\" data-originallang=\"en\">Failure to make an application within that application window would bar any further applications for five years, at which time another 90-day application window would open.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243625\" data-originallang=\"en\">These time limits are explicitly designed to shelter victims' families and loved ones by requiring offenders to make their intentions clear at the earliest opportunity and by restricting the number of applications that can be made over the course of an offender's sentence.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243626\" data-originallang=\"en\">The amendments made at the committee stage undermined virtually all of these worthwhile goals. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243627\" data-originallang=\"en\">The government is committed to protecting the rights of victims of crime. We want to see an end to faint hope reviews so that victims' families would not need to suffer the anguish of attending repeated parole eligibility hearings and relive their losses over and over again.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243628\" data-originallang=\"en\">I think it is mindful that the House be advised of what one of the spokespersons for victims of crime said at committee regarding repeal of the faint hope close.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243629\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ms. Sharon Rosenfeldt, who is the mother of one of Clifford Olson's many victims, said:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243630\" data-originallang=\"en\"> We at Victims of Violence believe this process is heavily weighted in favour of the offender. The emphasis is on rehabilitation rather than on the crime itself, the victim, or the impact of the crime on the family and communities. We believe that when Mr. Warren Allmand, the member of Parliament responsible for this clause, talked about the waste of the life of the offender who is kept in prison for 25 years, he seemed not to take into consideration the innocent life the offender wasted when he or she made the decision to commit murder. There is no parole or judicial review for murder victims and their families. They have no faint hope clause or legal loophole to shorten their sentence. Victims of Violence also believes the offender is not sent to prison to be punished, but rather the sentence itself is the punishment, according to the Criminal Code of Canada. Thus we continue to ask a very simple question: Is the sentence 25 years, or is it 15 years? It cannot continue to be both. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243631\" data-originallang=\"en\">That ends Ms. Rosenfeldt's testimony before the justice committee.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243632\" data-originallang=\"en\">As was demonstrated at the committee, the Liberals, on the other hand, are more interested in playing politics instead of listening to the victims of crime.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243633\" data-originallang=\"en\">As a result of the several unnecessary Liberal amendments to Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, such as removing the name of the bill, this important legislation will now have to return to the other place, unless of course this House decides to agree with the proposed amendments put forward today and reverse the amendments at committee.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243634\" data-originallang=\"en\">The Liberal caucus claims to share Canadians' and victims' concerns about crime, but when the cameras are off, it uses every opportunity to gut, derail or delay our important government law and order, safe street and safe community bills.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243635\" data-originallang=\"en\">These unnecessary amendments were clearly used as a political tactic to delay our justice legislation. It is inconceivable to me that such an important matter as the protection of the families and loved ones of murder victims be delayed by a dispute over semantics.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243636\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are really getting to the bottom of the intellectual barrel when we start wasting time in committee debating the names of bills. That really, I think, brings a disservice to the intellectual debate that these bills require and that Canadians want and demand that we pass.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243637\" data-originallang=\"en\">For all these reasons, I urge all hon. members to reflect on what I have just said today and to vote in favour of the government's report stage amendments that would reverse the unnecessary changes introduced by the Liberals at committee and allow this bill to quickly become law to the benefit of the victims of crime in this country.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243638\" data-originallang=\"en\">Victims of crime have spoken loudly and unequivocally that they want this legislation passed and that they want it passed expeditiously. I urge all hon. members of the House to give deference to the victims of crime.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243613\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je suis ravi de prendre la parole au sujet du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, Loi renfor\u00e7ant la s\u00e9v\u00e9rit\u00e9 des peines d\u2019emprisonnement pour les crimes les plus graves, maintenant qu'il a \u00e9t\u00e9 renvoy\u00e9 \u00e0 la Chambre par le Comit\u00e9 permanent de la justice et des droits de la personne, dont je suis membre.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243614\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cette mesure l\u00e9gislative propose de modifier le Code criminel afin d'abroger d\u00e9sormais la disposition ou le r\u00e9gime dit de la derni\u00e8re chance dans le cas des meurtriers et de resserrer le processus de pr\u00e9sentation d'une demande dans le cas de ceux qui ont commis un crime avant l'entr\u00e9e en vigueur de l'abrogation. Le S\u00e9nat, qui a fait un examen rigoureux et exhaustif du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> avant de le renvoyer \u00e0 la Chambre sans amendement, a conclu que cette mesure permettrait d'atteindre les objectifs vis\u00e9s de fa\u00e7on \u00e9quilibr\u00e9e. Toutefois, les amendements adopt\u00e9s par le Comit\u00e9 de la justice risquent malheureusement d'invalider les dispositions les plus importantes du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> parce qu'ils r\u00e9introduisent l'ambigu\u00eft\u00e9 m\u00eame que ce projet de loi vise \u00e0 \u00e9liminer.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243615\" data-originallang=\"en\">Avant de poursuivre, je fais observer que la haute trahison et le meurtre sont sanctionn\u00e9s par une peine d'emprisonnement \u00e0 perp\u00e9tuit\u00e9 sans admissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, conform\u00e9ment \u00e0 l'article 745 du Code criminel. \u00c9tant donn\u00e9 que, fort heureusement, le Canada ne compte \u00e0 l'heure actuelle aucun d\u00e9tenu purgeant une peine pour trahison, je me concentrerai, pour le reste de mes observations, sur l'infraction de meurtre.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243616\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme nous le savons, le meurtre au premier degr\u00e9 et deux cat\u00e9gories de meurtre au deuxi\u00e8me degr\u00e9 engendrent automatiquement un temps d\u2019\u00e9preuve de 25 ans pour l\u2019admissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle. Les autres cat\u00e9gories de meurtre au deuxi\u00e8me degr\u00e9 engendrent une p\u00e9riode d\u2019inadmissibilit\u00e9 de 10 \u00e0 25 ans, d\u00e9termin\u00e9e par un juge conform\u00e9ment \u00e0 l\u2019article 745.4 du Code criminel.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243617\" data-originallang=\"en\">Malgr\u00e9 ces r\u00e8gles claires, la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance pr\u00e9vue \u00e0 l\u2019article 745.6 et les dispositions connexes permettent aux meurtriers de demander une date d\u2019admissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle ant\u00e9rieure \u00e0 celle qui \u00e9tait impos\u00e9e au moment de leur condamnation. Depuis son entr\u00e9e en vigueur en 1976, la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance a \u00e9t\u00e9 une source de controverse constante et a certainement \u00e9t\u00e9 un objet de d\u00e9rision pour bien des groupes de victimes au Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243618\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les familles et les \u00eatres chers des victimes des meurtriers sont particuli\u00e8rement touch\u00e9s, puisqu\u2019ils vivent souvent dans la crainte et l\u2019incertitude face \u00e0 la possibilit\u00e9 qu\u2019un d\u00e9linquant pr\u00e9sente une demande de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle qui les am\u00e8nera \u00e0 revivre encore une fois la douleur associ\u00e9e \u00e0 l\u2019\u00e9v\u00e9nement. En raison de ces pr\u00e9occupations, un gouvernement pr\u00e9c\u00e9dent a modifi\u00e9 la disposition, en 1997 et 1999, de mani\u00e8re que les auteurs de meurtres multiples ayant commis leurs crimes apr\u00e8s 1997 ne puissent demander leur lib\u00e9ration en vertu de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance et que la proc\u00e9dure de demande soit plus compliqu\u00e9e dans le cas des autres meurtriers.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243619\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>, fond\u00e9 sur ces mesures prises ant\u00e9rieurement, supprimerait effectivement, pour tous les futurs meurtriers, le droit de demander leur lib\u00e9ration en vertu de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance et rendrait la proc\u00e9dure de demande encore plus complexe. Cette mesure est importante. Non seulement le fait d\u2019emp\u00eacher les futurs meurtriers de demander la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle serait b\u00e9n\u00e9fique pour les familles et les \u00eatres chers des victimes, mais cela assurerait une meilleure protection de la soci\u00e9t\u00e9 parce que les d\u00e9linquants demeureraient en prison pour toute la dur\u00e9e de leur peine. Pourrait-on trouver mesure plus raisonnable?</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243620\" data-originallang=\"en\">Tous les d\u00e9put\u00e9s se rappelleront, parce qu'on en a d\u00e9j\u00e0 discut\u00e9 \u00e0 la Chambre, que la proc\u00e9dure courante de demande de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle se fait en trois \u00e9tapes: premi\u00e8rement, s\u00e9lection par un juge des requ\u00e9rants dont la demande pourrait \u00eatre accueille; deuxi\u00e8mement, r\u00e9duction du temps d\u2019\u00e9preuve pour l\u2019admissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle sur d\u00e9cision unanime d\u2019un jury; troisi\u00e8mement, demande de lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle \u00e0 la Commission des lib\u00e9rations conditionnelles du Canada. Permettez-moi de souligner les principaux changements propos\u00e9s dans le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243621\" data-originallang=\"en\">D\u2019abord, les requ\u00e9rants devraient respecter un crit\u00e8re plus s\u00e9v\u00e8re \u00e0 la premi\u00e8re \u00e9tape en d\u00e9montrant qu\u2019il existe une \u00ab probabilit\u00e9 marqu\u00e9e \u00bb que la demande soit accueillie. Cela \u00e9liminerait toutes les demandes moins m\u00e9ritoires. La p\u00e9riode d\u2019inadmissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 une nouvelle demande apr\u00e8s le rejet d\u2019une premi\u00e8re demande serait aussi plus longue, soit cinq ans au lieu des deux ann\u00e9es actuellement pr\u00e9vues dans la loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243622\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les d\u00e9put\u00e9s se souviennent certainement du cas tr\u00e8s m\u00e9diatis\u00e9 de Clifford Olsen, qui pr\u00e9sente des demandes en vertu de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance \u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s tous les deux ans. En fait, la derni\u00e8re a \u00e9t\u00e9 faite la semaine derni\u00e8re. Chaque fois, cela ne faisait qu\u2019amener les familles des victimes de M. Olsen \u00e0 revivre l\u2019horreur et la terreur.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243623\" data-originallang=\"en\">Chose plus importante encore, le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> imposerait une nouvelle limite de 90 jours au d\u00e9linquant qui a purg\u00e9 15 ans de sa peine pour pr\u00e9senter une premi\u00e8re ou une nouvelle demande en vertu du r\u00e9gime de la derni\u00e8re chance.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243624\" data-originallang=\"en\">S'il ne pr\u00e9sente pas de demande dans les d\u00e9lais impartis, le d\u00e9linquant ne pourrait pas en pr\u00e9senter de nouvelle pendant cinq ans, auquel cas il faudrait qu'il respecte encore la limite de 90 jours.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243625\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ces d\u00e9lais sont impos\u00e9s express\u00e9ment dans le but de prot\u00e9ger les familles des victimes et leurs \u00eatres chers en exigeant que les d\u00e9linquants fassent clairement conna\u00eetre leurs intentions le plus t\u00f4t possible et en limitant le nombre de demandes qu'ils peuvent pr\u00e9senter pendant la dur\u00e9e de leur peine.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243626\" data-originallang=\"en\">Toutefois, les amendements propos\u00e9s par le comit\u00e9 nuisent \u00e0 presque tous ces objectifs valables.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243627\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le gouvernement est r\u00e9solu \u00e0 prot\u00e9ger les droits des victimes d'actes criminels. Nous souhaitons mettre fin aux examens de la derni\u00e8re chance pour \u00e9pargner aux familles des victimes la douleur d'assister \u00e0 de nombreuses audiences d'admissibilit\u00e9 \u00e0 la lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle et d'avoir \u00e0 revivre \u00e0 r\u00e9p\u00e9tition la perte d'un \u00eatre cher.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243628\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je pense qu'il serait utile de rapporter \u00e0 la Chambre les paroles prononc\u00e9es par une des porte-parole des victimes d'actes criminels devant le comit\u00e9 au sujet de l'abrogation de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243629\" data-originallang=\"en\">M<sup>me</sup> Sharon Rosenfeldt, qui est la m\u00e8re de l'une des nombreuses victimes de Clifford Olson, a d\u00e9clar\u00e9 ce qui suit:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243630\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Nous, chez Victims of Violence, croyons que le processus favorise lourdement le d\u00e9linquant. On met l'accent sur la r\u00e9adaptation plut\u00f4t que sur le crime, la victime ou les cons\u00e9quences du crime pour la famille et la collectivit\u00e9. Selon nous, lorsque M. Warren Allmand, d\u00e9put\u00e9 responsable de cette disposition, a parl\u00e9 du gaspillage de la vie du d\u00e9linquant qui reste 25 ans en prison, il a sembl\u00e9 oublier la vie innocente que le d\u00e9linquant a sacrifi\u00e9e lorsqu'il a d\u00e9cid\u00e9 de commettre le meurtre. Il n'y a ni lib\u00e9ration conditionnelle, ni r\u00e9vision judiciaire pour les victimes de meurtre et leur famille. Elles n'ont ni derni\u00e8re chance ni \u00e9chappatoire juridique pour abr\u00e9ger leur peine. Victims of Violence croit \u00e9galement que le d\u00e9linquant n'est pas incarc\u00e9r\u00e9 pour \u00eatre puni. C'est la sentence elle-m\u00eame qui est le ch\u00e2timent, selon le Code criminel du Canada. Nous continuons donc de poser une question fort simple: la peine est-elle de 25 ans ou de 15 ans? Il faut choisir. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2243631\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est ce qu'a d\u00e9clar\u00e9 M<sup>me</sup> Rosenfeldt devant le Comit\u00e9 de la justice.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243632\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme il a \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9montr\u00e9 lors des audiences de ce comit\u00e9, les lib\u00e9raux cherchent plus \u00e0 se livrer \u00e0 de petits jeux politiques qu'\u00e0 \u00e9couter les victimes d'actes criminels.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243633\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00c0 la suite des amendements que les lib\u00e9raux ont apport\u00e9s au projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4445038\" href=\"/bills/40-3/S-6/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act\">S-6</a> \u2014 des modifications tout \u00e0 fait inutiles, qui servent par exemple \u00e0 supprimer le nom du projet de loi \u2014, il faudra qu'on renvoie cette importante mesure l\u00e9gislative \u00e0 l'autre endroit, \u00e0 moins bien s\u00fbr que la Chambre ne d\u00e9cide d'adopter les amendements pr\u00e9sent\u00e9s aujourd'hui qui visent \u00e0 annuler les amendements propos\u00e9s par le comit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243634\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les lib\u00e9raux pr\u00e9tendent partager les inqui\u00e9tudes des Canadiens et des victimes quant \u00e0 la criminalit\u00e9, mais lorsqu'ils ne sont plus devant les cam\u00e9ras, ils font tout ce qu'ils peuvent pour miner les importants projets de loi du gouvernement concernant l'ordre public, les faire avorter ou les retarder. Je rappelle que ces projets de loi am\u00e9liorent la s\u00e9curit\u00e9 dans les collectivit\u00e9s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243635\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ces amendements inutiles sont des tactiques politiques visant \u00e0 retarder l'adoption des nos mesures l\u00e9gislatives en mati\u00e8re de justice. \u00c0 mon avis, il est inconcevable qu'on puisse retarder une mesure portant sur une chose aussi importante, \u00e0 savoir la protection de la famille et des proches des victimes de meurtre, en raison de simples discussions sur le sens des mots. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243636\" data-originallang=\"en\">On tombe vraiment dans la mesquinerie intellectuelle lorsqu'on perd du temps, au comit\u00e9, \u00e0 d\u00e9battre du nom des projets de loi. Je pense sinc\u00e8rement qu'on nuit ainsi au d\u00e9bat intellectuel qu'il est n\u00e9cessaire de tenir sur les projets de loi que les Canadiens veulent voir adopt\u00e9s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243637\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'incite donc les d\u00e9put\u00e9s, pour toutes ces raisons, \u00e0 r\u00e9fl\u00e9chir \u00e0 ce que je viens de dire et \u00e0 voter en faveur des amendements propos\u00e9s par le gouvernement \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape du rapport. Ces amendements annuleront les modifications inutiles que les lib\u00e9raux ont pr\u00e9sent\u00e9es au comit\u00e9 et permettront d'adopter rapidement le projet de loi dans l'int\u00e9r\u00eat des victimes d'actes criminels au Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243638\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les victimes d'actes criminels ont tr\u00e8s clairement fait savoir qu'ils souhaitent qu'on adopte rapidement la mesure l\u00e9gislative. Je demande donc aux d\u00e9put\u00e9s de t\u00e9moigner du respect pour les victimes.</p>"
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"url": "/debates/2010/12/10/brent-rathgeber-1/",
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"time": "2010-12-10 10:55:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor\u2014Tecumseh, NDP)",
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"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243639\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, with regard to the amendments, it was interesting that the new Ombudsman for Victims of Crime was recently appointed this past summer, as the government did not like what the prior one was doing, because he was being too forceful especially around the gun registry. The Conservatives did not reappoint him. At that point he was in favour, as were a number of the victims activist groups, of keeping the gun registry and opposed to the government's position. Anyway he did not get renewed in his position, like so many other people who do not agree with the government's agenda even though they are doing the job they are supposed to be doing.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243640\" data-originallang=\"en\">Specifically on one of the amendments being proposed in trying to delete one the amendments made at the justice committee, we heard very clearly from the ombudsman and other victims about their absolute need for information, to know what is going on, such as whether there is another proceeding coming. Are they going to be faced with a process that they want to be involved in out of respect for their family member or loved one who has been murdered?</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243641\" data-originallang=\"en\">One of the amendments put in that the opposition parties supported was to deal with the situation. We have a situation with the faint hope clause where, a year before individuals are eligible to apply, the corrections officers have discussions with them, and all of the evidence that came out in the course of analyzing the bill and the faint hope clause\u2014</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2243639\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, en ce qui concerne les modifications l\u00e9gislatives, il est int\u00e9ressant de voir que le gouvernement a nomm\u00e9 r\u00e9cemment, l'\u00e9t\u00e9 dernier, un nouvel ombudsman des victimes d'actes criminels parce qu'il n'appr\u00e9ciait pas son pr\u00e9d\u00e9cesseur, qui ne m\u00e2chait pas ses mots, surtout \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard du registre des armes \u00e0 feu. Les conservateurs n'ont pas renouvel\u00e9 son mandat. L'ombudsman, tout comme un certain nombre des groupes de d\u00e9fense des victimes, \u00e9tait en faveur du maintien du registre des armes \u00e0 feu et il s'\u00e9tait oppos\u00e9 \u00e0 la position du gouvernement. Son mandat n'a pas \u00e9t\u00e9 renouvel\u00e9, tout comme celui d'autres personnes qui n'approuvent pas le programme du gouvernement, et ce, m\u00eame si elles font leur travail convenablement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243640\" data-originallang=\"en\">En ce qui concerne l'un des amendements propos\u00e9s en remplacement d'un des amendements faits au Comit\u00e9 de la justice, l'ombudsman et d'autres victimes nous ont exprim\u00e9 tr\u00e8s clairement leur besoin de savoir ce qui se passe, entre autres si un processus d'examen d'une demande aura lieu bient\u00f4t parce qu'elles veulent y participer par respect pour le membre de leur famille ou leur proche qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 assassin\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2243641\" data-originallang=\"en\">L'un des amendements propos\u00e9s, qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 appuy\u00e9 par les partis de l'opposition, visait \u00e0 r\u00e9gler la situation. Aux termes de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance, les d\u00e9linquants, un an avant de pouvoir pr\u00e9senter une demande, ont des discussions avec les agents correctionnels. Tous les \u00e9l\u00e9ments d'information qui sont ressortis dans le cadre de l'examen du projet de loi et de la disposition de la derni\u00e8re chance...</p>"
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