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of speeches
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{
"objects": [
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:00:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe (Eglinton\u2014Lawrence, Lib.))",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151649\" data-originallang=\"en\"> I call the meeting to order.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151650\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g) and the motion adopted on Thursday, October 21, 2010, we are considering the report of the Auditor General of Canada referred to the committee on Tuesday, October 26, 2010.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151651\" data-originallang=\"en\"> I am pleased to have with us again today, from the Office of the Auditor General, the Auditor General, Madam Sheila Fraser. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151652\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Good morning, Ms. Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151653\" data-originallang=\"en\">We also have the assistant auditors general, Jerome Berthelette, <em>bonjour et bienvenue</em>, and Mr. Ronnie Campbell. Good morning. It is good to have you with us.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151654\" data-originallang=\"en\">Madam Fraser, you probably know that I am still relatively new in this spot and am fascinated by the reports, as are all Canadians, that say we operate in a system where there are rules, that we follow the rules, and that we revise the rules and then have the Auditor General comment on whether we have observed everything. So I am just dying to hear what you have to say.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151649\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je d\u00e9clare la s\u00e9ance ouverte.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151650\" data-originallang=\"en\">Conform\u00e9ment \u00e0 l'alin\u00e9a 108(3)<em>g)</em> du R\u00e8glement et \u00e0 la motion adopt\u00e9e le jeudi 21 octobre 2010, nous examinons le rapport de la v\u00e9rificatrice g\u00e9n\u00e9rale du Canada renvoy\u00e9 au comit\u00e9 le mardi 26 octobre 2010.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151651\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je suis ravi que nous recevions encore une fois aujourd'hui, du Bureau du v\u00e9rificateur g\u00e9n\u00e9ral du Canada, Mme Sheila Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151652\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Bonjour, madame.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151653\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous recevons \u00e9galement les v\u00e9rificateurs g\u00e9n\u00e9raux adjoints, M. Jerome Berthelette, bonjour et bienvenue, et M. Ronnie Campbell. Bonjour. C'est un plaisir de vous voir aujourd'hui.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151654\" data-originallang=\"en\">Madame Fraser, vous savez probablement que j'occupe ce poste depuis peu et je suis fascin\u00e9, comme le sont tous les Canadiens, par les rapports qui disent que nous vivons dans un syst\u00e8me r\u00e9gi par des r\u00e8gles, que nous suivons et r\u00e9visons ces r\u00e8gles, et que la v\u00e9rificatrice g\u00e9n\u00e9rale vient par la suite nous dire si nous avons bien observ\u00e9 toutes les r\u00e8gles. J'ai donc tr\u00e8s h\u00e2te d'entendre ce que vous avez \u00e0 dire.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:00:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser (Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151655\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Chair, we are pleased to be here today to present our fall 2010 report, which was tabled this past Tuesday.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151656\" data-originallang=\"en\">As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Assistant Auditors General Jerome Berthelette and Ronnie Campbell.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151657\" data-originallang=\"fr\">This report covers a broad range of programs and activities that are important to Parliament and have an impact\u2014whether direct or indirect\u2014on the lives of Canadians.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151658\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are reporting on the first of two audits of Canada's economic action plan. This first audit took place while the plan was being rolled out, and it focused on how programs were designed and projects were approved.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151659\" data-originallang=\"en\">Our second audit, which will be reported in the fall of 2011, will look at whether the approved projects were completed as intended.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151660\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The Economic Action Plan is a huge undertaking, involving some $47 billion in federal money and a further $14 billion from the provinces and territories, within a two-year timeframe.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151661\" data-originallang=\"en\">Departments and central agencies worked hard to accelerate their selection and approval processes and put in place the appropriate controls. We are pleased to see the important role that internal audit played.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151662\" data-originallang=\"fr\">In 2007, we began a program of auditing the management practices of small federal entities. This year, we looked at the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency, and the Pension Appeals Board. We are pleased to report that management practices in the areas we examined are sound.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151663\" data-originallang=\"en\">The federal government delivers a broad range of services that have a direct impact on the well-being of Canadians. To achieve and maintain high-quality service, organizations must define service standards, monitor performance, and take action to make improvements when they identify service issues.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151664\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are pleased to note that the Canada Revenue Agency and Human Resources and Skills Development Canada have set service standards and are using them to improve service delivery.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151665\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Citizenship and Immigration Canada has been working since 2007 to improve its service delivery. However, it has established service standards for very few of its major programs. We encourage Citizenship and Immigration to complete the work it has begun towards a comprehensive set of standards for its services.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151666\" data-originallang=\"en\">This report also looks at the way conflict of interest is managed in the public service. We found that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat has yet to put in place the new policy required under the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act of 2007 and to provide related guidance.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151667\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Avoiding situations that could lead to conflict of interest is key to maintaining the public's confidence in an impartial and objective public service. Public servants need to be able to recognize potential conflicts and know how to deal with them.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151668\" data-originallang=\"en\">Departments need to do a better job of determining the areas where they are most exposed to conflict of interest and of taking the required action when conflicts are identified.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151669\" data-originallang=\"fr\">We also looked at how the federal government regulates and supervises Canada's six largest banks. We found that the Department of Finance and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions have appropriate practices in place. Banks play a key role in just about every economic transaction and are major sources of credit. Canada's economic well-being depends on the health and stability of its banking system.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151670\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Experts have linked Canada's relative success during the recent global economic downturn to its approach to regulating and supervising banks. Rapid changes in financial markets present an ongoing challenge.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151671\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Chapter 6 of my report presents the findings of our audit on the acquisition of the Chinook and Cyclone military helicopters. We understand that acquiring complex military equipment like these helicopters presents unique challenges. Nonetheless, the results of this audit are troubling. National Defence did not follow its own rules in managing and overseeing the acquisition projects. We identified several gaps with respect to the completeness of information presented to decision-makers as well as approvals and oversight by senior boards at key decision points.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151672\" data-originallang=\"en\">We found that National Defence and Public Works and Government Services Canada generally complied with the policies and regulations regarding contract management with respect to the acquisition of the Cyclone helicopter. However, this was not the case with the advance contract award notice used by Public Works and Government Services Canada to procure the Chinook helicopter. As a result, it is our conclusion that the contract award process was not fair, open, and transparent to potential suppliers. Public Works and Government Services Canada disagrees with this conclusion.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151673\" data-originallang=\"en\">We also found that National Defence underestimated and understated the complexity and developmental nature of the helicopters it intended to buy. The substantial modifications to the basic models resulted in significant cost increases and project delays. After lengthy delays and significant cost increases, National Defence still has not completely estimated what it will cost to operate these helicopters. Without this costing information and sufficient funds, National Defence may have to curtail planned training and operations. This is cause for concern.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151674\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Let's turn now to the chapter on registered charities. We examined how the Canada Revenue Agency encourages registered charities to comply with the Income Tax Act. Canadians donate millions of dollars to Canada's 45,000 registered charities each year. We are pleased to note that the agency is doing a good job of administering the Income Tax Act as it relates to these charities.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151675\" data-originallang=\"en\">Turning to the Canada Border Services Agency, we found that the agency's practices facilitate the flow of imported commercial goods into Canada. This is important when you consider that Canada imported over $440 billion of commercial goods in 2008. The agency is now working to ensure that it has the information it needs to effectively assess risks and to collect the revenues owed by importers. It is important that it complete its plans and strategies to achieve this objective.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151676\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The last chapter of this report looks at whether the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has planned for and responded to animal disease emergencies. Animal disease outbreaks are particularly costly in terms of lost production\u2014not to mention the threat to animal health, and in certain cases, human health. The agency must be ready to act quickly when such emergencies arise.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151677\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are pleased to note that the agency has learned from its past experience and has put a lot of effort into improving its capacity to respond to emergencies. We encourage it to complete the remaining work that it has identified.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151678\" data-originallang=\"en\">I thank you, Mr. Chair. This concludes my opening statement. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151679\" data-originallang=\"en\">Thank you.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151655\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le pr\u00e9sident, nous sommes ravis d'\u00eatre ici aujourd'hui pour pr\u00e9senter notre rapport de l'automne 2010, qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9pos\u00e9 mardi dernier.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151656\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme vous l'avez mentionn\u00e9, je suis accompagn\u00e9e des v\u00e9rificateurs g\u00e9n\u00e9raux adjoints, Jerome Berthelette et Ronnie Campbell.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151657\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Ce rapport aborde une vaste gamme de programmes et d'activit\u00e9s qui importent au Parlement et qui ont un impact, tant direct qu'indirect, sur la vie des Canadiens. Nous examinons des questions importantes et nous communiquons tous les r\u00e9sultats de nos v\u00e9rifications. Je suis heureuse de pouvoir vous dire que bon nombre des constatations que contient ce rapport sont positives.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151658\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous pr\u00e9sentons les constatations issues de la premi\u00e8re de deux v\u00e9rifications portant sur le Plan d'action \u00e9conomique du Canada. Cette premi\u00e8re v\u00e9rification a \u00e9t\u00e9 effectu\u00e9e tandis que le plan \u00e9tait en cours d'ex\u00e9cution, et elle a vis\u00e9 la mani\u00e8re dont les programmes ont \u00e9t\u00e9 con\u00e7us et les projets, approuv\u00e9s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151659\" data-originallang=\"en\">La seconde v\u00e9rification, dont nous rendrons compte \u00e0 l'automne 2011, \u00e9valuera si les projets approuv\u00e9s ont \u00e9t\u00e9 men\u00e9s \u00e0 terme comme pr\u00e9vu.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151660\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Le Plan d'action \u00e9conomique est un engagement de grande envergure qui repr\u00e9sente quelque 47 milliards de dollars du f\u00e9d\u00e9ral et 14 milliards de dollars des provinces et des territoires pendant une p\u00e9riode de deux ans.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151661\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les minist\u00e8res et les organismes centraux ont travaill\u00e9 fort pour acc\u00e9l\u00e9rer leurs processus de s\u00e9lection et d'approbation, et ils ont mis en place des contr\u00f4les appropri\u00e9s. Nous sommes heureux du r\u00f4le important qu'a jou\u00e9 la v\u00e9rification interne.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151662\" data-originallang=\"fr\">En 2007, nous avons mis en place un programme de v\u00e9rification des pratiques de gestion des petites entit\u00e9s f\u00e9d\u00e9rales. Cette ann\u00e9e, notre v\u00e9rification a port\u00e9 sur l'Agence de logement des Forces canadiennes, l'Agence canadienne du pari mutuel et la Commission d'appel des pensions. Nous sommes heureux d'annoncer que les pratiques de gestion dans les domaines examin\u00e9s sont bonnes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151663\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le gouvernement f\u00e9d\u00e9ral offre une vaste gamme de services qui ont une incidence directe sur le bien-\u00eatre des Canadiens. Pour offrir un service de grande qualit\u00e9, les organisations doivent d\u00e9finir des normes de service, surveiller les r\u00e9sultats et apporter des changements positifs quand elles constatent des probl\u00e8mes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151664\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous sommes heureux de constater que l'Agence du Canada et Ressources humaines et D\u00e9veloppement des comp\u00e9tences Canada ont \u00e9tabli des normes de service et qu'ils les utilisent pour am\u00e9liorer la prestation de leurs services.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151665\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Citoyennet\u00e9 et Immigration Canada s'emploie depuis 2007 \u00e0 am\u00e9liorer la prestation de ses services. Pourtant, le minist\u00e8re n'a \u00e9tabli de normes que pour tr\u00e8s peu de ses principaux programmes. Nous encourageons Citoyennet\u00e9 et Immigration Canada \u00e0 compl\u00e9ter le travail entrepris pour \u00e9laborer un ensemble complet de normes de service.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151666\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous nous sommes pench\u00e9s aussi sur la gestion des conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats dans le secteur public. Nous avons constat\u00e9 que le Secr\u00e9tariat du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor du Canada n'a pas encore mis en place la nouvelle politique qu'exige depuis 2007 la Loi sur la protection des fonctionnaires divulgateurs d'actes r\u00e9pr\u00e9hensibles ni fourni d'encadrement connexe.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151667\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Il est essentiel d'\u00e9viter des situations qui peuvent entra\u00eener un conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats. La confiance du public \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard de l'impartialit\u00e9 et de l'objectivit\u00e9 de la fonction publique en d\u00e9pend. Les fonctionnaires doivent savoir reconna\u00eetre les situations qui peuvent constituer un conflit et doivent aussi savoir ce qu'ils ont \u00e0 faire quand se pr\u00e9sente une telle situation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151668\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les minist\u00e8res doivent mettre plus d'efforts \u00e0 cerner les secteurs dans lesquels ils sont les plus expos\u00e9s \u00e0 des conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats et \u00e0 prendre les mesures qui s'imposent quand il y a bel et bien un conflit.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151669\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Notre v\u00e9rification a port\u00e9 sur la r\u00e9glementation et la surveillance par le gouvernement f\u00e9d\u00e9ral des six grandes banques canadiennes. Nous avons constat\u00e9 que les pratiques du minist\u00e8re des Finances et du Bureau du surintendant des institutions financi\u00e8res \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard sont appropri\u00e9es. Les banques jouent un r\u00f4le cl\u00e9 dans presque tous les \u00e9changes \u00e9conomiques et elles sont d'importantes sources de cr\u00e9dit. Le bien-\u00eatre \u00e9conomique du Canada repose sur la sant\u00e9 et la stabilit\u00e9 de son syst\u00e8me bancaire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151670\" data-originallang=\"en\">Des sp\u00e9cialistes ont attribu\u00e9 les r\u00e9sultats favorables qu'a obtenu le Canada durant le r\u00e9cent repli \u00e9conomique \u00e0 sa fa\u00e7on de r\u00e9glementer et de surveiller ses banques. Mais quand les march\u00e9s financiers \u00e9voluent rapidement, le d\u00e9fi reste entier.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151671\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Le chapitre six de mon rapport porte sur l'achat des h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res militaires Chinook et Cyclone. Nous comprenons que l'acquisition d'\u00e9quipement militaire complexe comme ces h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res pr\u00e9sente des difficult\u00e9s uniques. N\u00e9anmoins, les r\u00e9sultats de cette v\u00e9rification sont inqui\u00e9tants. La D\u00e9fense nationale n'a pas suivi ses propres r\u00e8gles sur la gestion et la surveillance de grands projets d'immobilisation. Nous avons relev\u00e9 plusieurs lacunes, notamment dans l'information communiqu\u00e9e aux d\u00e9cideurs et dans la surveillance exerc\u00e9e, et les approbations donn\u00e9es par les comit\u00e9s sup\u00e9rieurs aux moments d\u00e9cisionnels cl\u00e9s des projets d'acquisition.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151672\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous avons constat\u00e9 que la D\u00e9fense nationale et Travaux publics et Services gouvernementaux Canada ont g\u00e9n\u00e9ralement respect\u00e9 les politiques et les r\u00e8glements sur la gestion des contrats pour le projet d'achat du Cyclone. Ce n'est pas le cas cependant pour le projet d'achat du Chinook, en raison de la fa\u00e7on dont Travaux publics a utilis\u00e9 le pr\u00e9avis d'adjudication de contrat. De fait, nous avons conclu que le processus d'attribution du contrat n'avait pas \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9quitable, ouvert et transparent pour les fournisseurs. Travaux publics et Services gouvernementaux Canada n'approuve pas cette conclusion. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151673\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous avons aussi constat\u00e9 que la D\u00e9fense nationale a sous-estim\u00e9 et minimis\u00e9 la complexit\u00e9 des appareils qu'elle comptait acheter ainsi que la nature des travaux de d\u00e9veloppement connexes. Les modifications importantes qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 apport\u00e9es aux mod\u00e8les de base ont beaucoup retard\u00e9 les projets et augment\u00e9 les co\u00fbts. Apr\u00e8s maints retards et d'importantes hausses de co\u00fbts, la D\u00e9fense nationale n'a pas encore \u00e9valu\u00e9 le co\u00fbt complet du fonctionnement de ces h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res. Sans cette information et des fonds suffisants, la D\u00e9fense nationale pourrait devoir r\u00e9duire les op\u00e9rations et les exercices d'entra\u00eenement pr\u00e9vus. La situation est pr\u00e9occupante.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151674\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Passons maintenant aux organismes de bienfaisance. Nous avons examin\u00e9 les mesures que prend l'Agence du revenu du Canada pour encourager les organismes de bienfaisance enregistr\u00e9es \u00e0 observer la Loi de l'imp\u00f4t sur le revenu. Les Canadiens donnent chaque ann\u00e9e des millions de dollars aux 45 000 organismes de bienfaisance enregistr\u00e9s au Canada. Nous sommes heureux de constater que l'agence applique bien les dispositions de la Loi de l'imp\u00f4t sur le revenu qui concerne ces organismes. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151675\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quant \u00e0 l'Agence des services frontaliers du Canada, nous avons constat\u00e9 que les m\u00e9thodes de l'agence facilitent la circulation des marchandises commerciales import\u00e9es. C'est important quand on songe que la valeur des marchandises commerciales import\u00e9es par le Canada en 2008 a d\u00e9pass\u00e9 les 440 milliards de dollars. L'agence consacre maintenant des efforts \u00e0 s'assurer qu'elle dispose des renseignements dont elle a besoin pour \u00e9valuer les risques de fa\u00e7on efficace et percevoir les droits que les importateurs lui doivent. Il est important qu'elle ach\u00e8ve ses plans et ses strat\u00e9gies pour atteindre cet objectif.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151676\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Le dernier chapitre de mon rapport examine si l'Agence canadienne d'inspection des aliments a \u00e9tabli des plans relativement aux urgences li\u00e9es aux maladies animales et si elle est intervenue dans de telles urgences. Les \u00e9closions de maladie chez les animaux sont particuli\u00e8rement co\u00fbteuses en raison des pertes de production, sans oublier qu'elles menacent la sant\u00e9 des animaux et dans certains cas celle des humains. L'agence doit \u00eatre en mesure de r\u00e9agir promptement lorsque surviennent de telles urgences.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151677\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous sommes heureux de constater que l'agence a tir\u00e9 des le\u00e7ons de ses exp\u00e9riences pass\u00e9es et qu'elle a consacr\u00e9 beaucoup d'efforts \u00e0 am\u00e9liorer sa capacit\u00e9 d'intervention. Nous l'encourageons \u00e0 terminer le travail qu'elle a cern\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151678\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je vous remercie, monsieur le pr\u00e9sident. Voil\u00e0 qui termine ma d\u00e9claration. Nous serons heureux de r\u00e9pondre aux questions des membres du comit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151679\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Chair",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151680\" data-originallang=\"en\">Thank you very much, Madam Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151681\" data-originallang=\"en\">We're going to go to Mr. Bains first.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151680\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci beaucoup, madame Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151681\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous allons d\u00e9buter avec M. Bains.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga\u2014Brampton South, Lib.)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151682\" data-originallang=\"en\">Thank you very much, Chair.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151683\" data-originallang=\"en\">I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Auditor General and her office again for all the hard work you have done in preparing these reports. It's greatly appreciated and it is very important for us in the committee as well.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151684\" data-originallang=\"en\">I'll be talking about chapter 6, \u201cAcquisition of Military Helicopters\u201d, this morning, and focusing my comments on the mismanagement that you raised, which equates to the billions of dollars in cost overruns.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151685\" data-originallang=\"en\">You mentioned in paragraph 6.59 of your report that, \u201cIn 2006, the project was described by National Defence internally and to Cabinet and the Treasury Board as an off-the-shelf procurement\u201d, and then you further stated that, the \u201cRisks were generally assessed as 'low' to 'medium'....\u201d. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151686\" data-originallang=\"en\">First of all, do you believe that is accurate? Secondly, why is this description important? Then, thirdly, I have a follow-up question with respect to comments you made with respect to the F-35s as well.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151682\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci beaucoup, monsieur le pr\u00e9sident.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151683\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'aimerais profiter de l'occasion pour remercier encore une fois la v\u00e9rificatrice g\u00e9n\u00e9rale et le personnel de son bureau pour tous leurs efforts dans la pr\u00e9paration de ces rapports. Nous leur en sommes tr\u00e8s reconnaissants et c'est tr\u00e8s important pour le comit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151684\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je vais parler du chapitre 6, \u00ab L'achat d'h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res militaires \u00bb, ce matin, et me concentrer sur la mauvaise gestion dont vous avez parl\u00e9, qui a men\u00e9 \u00e0 des d\u00e9passements de co\u00fbts de milliards de dollars.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151685\" data-originallang=\"en\">Vous mentionnez au paragraphe 6.59 de votre rapport que, \u00ab En 2006, la D\u00e9fense nationale a d\u00e9crit le projet \u00e0 l'interne ainsi qu'au Cabinet et au Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor comme l'acquisition d'un appareil d\u00e9j\u00e0 disponible sur le march\u00e9 \u00bb, et vous dites plus loin que, \u00ab les risques ont \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9valu\u00e9s, dans leur ensemble, comme \u00e9tant \u2018faibles\u2019 \u00e0 \u2018moyens\u2019... \u00bb</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151686\" data-originallang=\"en\">Premi\u00e8rement, croyez-vous que c'est exact? Deuxi\u00e8mement, pourquoi cette description est-elle importante? Et puis, troisi\u00e8mement, j'ai une autre question au sujet des commentaires que vous avez faits sur les F-35.</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-1/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433127",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151687\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Thank you, Mr. Chair.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151688\" data-originallang=\"en\">As we note in the report, we disagree with the description of these helicopters as being off the shelf. There were significant modifications that were needed to the Chinook. In fact, at that time, even in 2006, National Defence itself recognized that there would be modifications that would be required. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151689\" data-originallang=\"en\">I doubt, at the time, that they realized the full extent of the modifications because they actually didn't define the full set of requirements until three years later. During those three years, they continued to look at design, their requirements, and I guess request additional modifications.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151690\" data-originallang=\"en\">Obviously, rating this project as low risk to medium risk would not have adequately informed decision-makers about the potential risks, both to increasing cost and to project delays that subsequently occur.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151687\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci, monsieur le pr\u00e9sident.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151688\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme nous l'indiquons dans le rapport, nous ne sommes pas d'accord que ces h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res \u00e9taient d\u00e9j\u00e0 disponibles sur le march\u00e9. D'importantes modifications \u00e9taient n\u00e9cessaires pour le Chinook. En fait, \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque, m\u00eame en 2006, la D\u00e9fense nationale a elle-m\u00eame reconnu que des modifications seraient n\u00e9cessaires.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151689\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je doute qu'\u00e0 cette \u00e9poque, on ait vraiment compris l'\u00e9tendue des modifications parce que l'ensemble des exigences n'a \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9finie que trois ans plus tard. Pendant ces trois ann\u00e9es, on a continu\u00e9 d'examiner la conception, les exigences, et j'imagine qu'on a demand\u00e9 des modifications suppl\u00e9mentaires. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151690\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il est clair que de d\u00e9crire ce projet comme pr\u00e9sentant des risques faibles \u00e0 moyens n'aurait pas correctement inform\u00e9 les d\u00e9cideurs sur les risques \u00e9ventuels, tant au sujet des hausses de co\u00fbts et des retards qui ont eu lieu ensuite.</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/sheila-fraser-2/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433141",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151691\" data-originallang=\"en\">Are these same lessons, in your opinion, applicable to the current F-35s that are being purchased by the government as well, the same lessons with respect to the description of low risk to medium risk, and the comments we hear from the minister and the government with respect to that acquisition? Do you see the same challenges with those purchases?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151691\" data-originallang=\"en\">D'apr\u00e8s vous, peut-on appliquer ces m\u00eames le\u00e7ons aux F-35 que le gouvernement est en train d'acheter, les m\u00eames le\u00e7ons au sujet de la description des risques comme \u00e9tant faibles \u00e0 moyens, et les observations faites par le ministre et le gouvernement au sujet de cet achat? Croyez-vous qu'on se heurtera aux m\u00eames probl\u00e8mes avec cette acquisition?</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-2/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433145",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151692\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Chair, we have not looked at the acquisition of the F-35s. From what I do understand, it would appear that, again, this is an aircraft that is not off the shelf. One would expect that there will be risks involved in this project. We would expect National Defence to document what those risks are and the mitigation strategies they are putting in place.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151693\" data-originallang=\"en\">It's really about informing the decision-makers about what their commitments mean and what the projects are actually getting into.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151692\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le pr\u00e9sident, nous n'avons pas examin\u00e9 l'achat des F-35. De ce que j'en comprends, il semblerait qu'encore une fois, il ne s'agit pas d'un a\u00e9ronef d\u00e9j\u00e0 disponible sur le march\u00e9. On s'attendrait \u00e0 ce qu'il y ait des risques li\u00e9s \u00e0 ce projet. On s'attendrait \u00e0 ce que la D\u00e9fense nationale d\u00e9crive ces risques et les strat\u00e9gies d'att\u00e9nuation que le minist\u00e8re met en place.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151693\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il s'agit d'informer les d\u00e9cideurs sur la signification de leurs engagements et des projets.</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/sheila-fraser-3/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433148",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151694\" data-originallang=\"en\">One risk that I think gets overlooked but is important to note is the operational expenses in these projects. You've been quoted as saying:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151695\" data-originallang=\"en\"> After lengthy delays and significant cost increases, National Defence still has not completely estimated what it will cost to operate these helicopters. Nor has it put in place all the elements, such as personnel, needed to maintain them over the long term. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151696\" data-originallang=\"en\">You said this is a cause for concern. In your opinion, what are the additional costs? Is this normal practice for the department, and why weren't these costs included? Again, do you see the same challenges with respect to this particular process, and also with the unique elements of the F-35, as you described?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151694\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Pour ces projets, il y a un risque dont on ne tient pas suffisamment compte mais qui est important, soit les d\u00e9penses d'exploitation. Je vous cite:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151695\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Apr\u00e8s maints retards et d'importantes hausses des co\u00fbts, la D\u00e9fense nationale n'a pas encore \u00e9valu\u00e9 le co\u00fbt complet du fonctionnement de ces h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res. Elle n'a pas non plus comptabilis\u00e9 tous les \u00e9l\u00e9ments, tels que le personnel, requis pour l'entretien \u00e0 long terme. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151696\" data-originallang=\"en\">Vous avez dit que c'\u00e9tait pr\u00e9occupant. \u00c0 votre avis, quels sont ces co\u00fbts suppl\u00e9mentaires? Est-ce une pratique courante pour le minist\u00e8re, et pourquoi ces co\u00fbts n'ont-ils pas \u00e9t\u00e9 comptabilis\u00e9s? Voyez-vous les m\u00eames difficult\u00e9s pour ce processus, comme pour des \u00e9l\u00e9ments propres aux F-35, que vous avez d\u00e9crits?</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-3/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433150",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:10:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151697\" data-originallang=\"en\">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151698\" data-originallang=\"en\">In the report, in exhibit 6.6, we lay out the various costs and their estimates that National Defence has prepared to date. You will note in there that the estimate of personnel and operating costs has not been completed. This is important because the Chinook is a new helicopter for National Defence. They need to put in place about 500 people to maintain and support it. These are new technical requirements. They have to put those people in place, and the costs of all of that have not been fully been estimated at this point.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151699\" data-originallang=\"en\">We can recognize that at times it may be difficult to do estimations early, but there should be some indication, again, given to decision-makers. If the department doesn't know what those costs are and doesn't receive proper funding, they themselves have indicated that they will have to go back and either reduce operations or reduce training, or look to other areas to obviously find the funds for these operations.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151697\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci, monsieur le pr\u00e9sident.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151698\" data-originallang=\"en\">Dans le rapport, au tableau 6.6, nous pr\u00e9sentons les co\u00fbts estimatifs communiqu\u00e9s jusqu'ici par la D\u00e9fense nationale. Vous pouvez constater qu'il n'y a pas de montant estimatif pour le personnel et les co\u00fbts d'exploitation. C'est important, puisque le Chinook est un nouvel h\u00e9licopt\u00e8re pour la D\u00e9fense nationale. Il faudra 500 personnes environ pour en assurer la maintenance et l'exploitation. Ce sont de nouvelles exigences techniques. Il faut ces effectifs, dont le co\u00fbt n'a pas \u00e9t\u00e9 compl\u00e8tement comptabilis\u00e9 jusqu'ici. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151699\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous savons qu'il est parfois difficile de faire ce genre d'estimations t\u00f4t, mais on devrait pouvoir donner une id\u00e9e aux d\u00e9cisionnaires. Si le minist\u00e8re ne sait pas quels sont ces co\u00fbts et qu'il ne re\u00e7oit pas le financement n\u00e9cessaire, il lui faudra, comme il l'a lui-m\u00eame d\u00e9clar\u00e9, r\u00e9\u00e9tudier la question et r\u00e9duire les op\u00e9rations ou la formation, ou chercher ailleurs les fonds n\u00e9cessaires. </p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/sheila-fraser-4/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433161",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151700\" data-originallang=\"en\">Because the F-35s are not off the shelf, as you mentioned, because of the unique elements to them as well, what are some of the challenges you see with the operational costs that you've come across in the discussion taking place around that, and some of the challenges and the parallels with the helicopter purchase process and the operational costs estimated with the F-35s?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151700\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme vous l'avez dit, les F-35 ne sont pas un mod\u00e8le standard, car il y a des \u00e9l\u00e9ments qui leur sont particuliers. Quels sont donc les probl\u00e8mes que vous envisagez pour ce qui est des co\u00fbts d'exploitation, \u00e0 partir des discussions que vous avez eues \u00e0 ce sujet? Y a-t-il des difficult\u00e9s semblables ou des parall\u00e8les \u00e0 \u00e9tablir entre le processus d'achat des h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res et les co\u00fbts d'exploitation pr\u00e9visibles pour les F-35?</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-4/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433172",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151701\" data-originallang=\"en\">I really hesitate to get into a discussion about the F-35 because we have not looked at it. We will be, of course, doing some work on that issue going forward. Again, it really comes back to trying to assess what the risks are, what the requirements will be, and a range of costs that would be required to maintain and operate these helicopters or planes.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151701\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'h\u00e9site \u00e0 vous parler des F-35 puisque c'est une question que nous n'avons pas \u00e9tudi\u00e9e. Mais nous nous en saisirons plus tard. Je le r\u00e9p\u00e8te, il s'agit d'\u00e9tablir les risques, les exigences et une \u00e9chelle pour les co\u00fbts de maintenance et d'exploitation des a\u00e9ronefs.</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/sheila-fraser-5/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433176",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151702\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ms. Fraser, following the release of your report and the comments on the F-35, the <a data-HoCid=\"128698\" href=\"/politicians/tony-clement/\" title=\"Tony Clement\">Minister of Industry</a> stated that the scathing report that you released about cost overruns in a previous Ottawa procurement contract for the helicopters \u201cactually adds to our position that we should go full-steam ahead\u201d.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151703\" data-originallang=\"en\">Do you agree with the conclusion of the minister, in light of the fact that you keep mentioning that they need to have all the information\u2014that the decision-makers need to have all the information\u2014on the costs and the unique elements of the purchase before they make sound decisions regarding value-added and, more importantly, operational requirements? </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151704\" data-originallang=\"en\">What have your thoughts been on the minister's comments based on what you said in this report, that their position is to go full steam ahead? Do you agree with that statement?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151702\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Madame Fraser, dans la foul\u00e9e de la publication de votre rapport et des commentaires formul\u00e9s au sujet des F-35, le <a data-HoCid=\"128698\" href=\"/politicians/tony-clement/\" title=\"Tony Clement\">ministre de l\u2019Industrie</a> a dit que votre rapport cinglant sur les d\u00e9passements de co\u00fbts dans un march\u00e9 public ant\u00e9rieur d'Ottawa, pour l'achat d'h\u00e9licopt\u00e8res, \u00ab nous encourage en fait \u00e0 aller de l'avant \u00bb.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151703\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00cates-vous d'accord avec le ministre sur cette conclusion, \u00e9tant donn\u00e9 que vous r\u00e9p\u00e9tez que les d\u00e9cideurs ont besoin de toutes les donn\u00e9es n\u00e9cessaires sur les co\u00fbts et les \u00e9l\u00e9ments particuliers d'un achat, avant de prendre des d\u00e9cisions \u00e9clair\u00e9es relativement \u00e0 la valeur ajout\u00e9e ou, plus importantes encore, aux exigences op\u00e9rationnelles?</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151704\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00c9tant donn\u00e9 ce que vous avez d\u00e9clar\u00e9 dans ce rapport, comment r\u00e9agissez-vous aux propos du ministre, qui dit qu'il veut aller de l'avant? \u00cates-vous d'accord avec lui?</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-5/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433183",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151705\" data-originallang=\"en\"> I will not comment on comments by the minister. I think that would be inappropriate.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151705\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je ne ferai pas d'observations sur les propos du ministre. Je pense que ce serait inconvenant.</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/sheila-fraser-6/",
"politician_url": null,
"politician_membership_url": null,
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433191",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151706\" data-originallang=\"en\">I have a very quick question on transparency. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151707\" data-originallang=\"en\">In paragraph 6.95 in your report, you indicate:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151708\" data-originallang=\"en\"> ...we were unable to conclude on this aspect of our audit. For six of the eight Treasury Board submissions requested, we received almost no documentation. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151709\" data-originallang=\"en\">Then you mention that there were verbal submissions as well.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151710\" data-originallang=\"en\">How did this particular process cause challenges or problems in your audit? </p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151706\" data-originallang=\"en\"> J'ai une tr\u00e8s courte question sur la transparence.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151707\" data-originallang=\"en\">Au paragraphe 6.95 de votre rapport, vous dites:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151708\" data-originallang=\"en\"> ... il nous a \u00e9t\u00e9 impossible de tirer des conclusions dans le cadre de ce volet de notre v\u00e9rification. Pour six des huit pr\u00e9sentations au Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor pour lesquelles nous avions demand\u00e9 de l'information, nous n'avons re\u00e7u pratiquement aucune documentation. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2151709\" data-originallang=\"en\">Vous parlez ensuite de critiques formul\u00e9es verbalement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151710\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comment cette fa\u00e7on particuli\u00e8re de proc\u00e9der a-t-elle compliqu\u00e9 votre v\u00e9rification?</p>"
},
"url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/navdeep-bains-6/",
"politician_url": "/politicians/navdeep-bains/",
"politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1391/",
"procedural": false,
"source_id": "3433194",
"document_url": "/committees/public-accounts/40-3/29/"
},
{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151711\" data-originallang=\"en\">This is an issue that has been outstanding since about 2005--issues around our access to cabinet confidence. At one point the Treasury Board Secretariat had classified all of their analyses, and documentation around analysis of submissions, as being a cabinet confidence of a nature that we could not access. We raised this issue in a report in the fall of 2005. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151712\" data-originallang=\"en\">Subsequent to that, a new order in council was agreed to by the government that gives us access to those documents. Then in this audit there was a very strict legal interpretation that again limited our access. We went into some fairly vigorous discussions with officials and were able to resolve the issue, and new direction has been given to public servants.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151711\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est un probl\u00e8me qui remonte \u00e0 2005 environ \u2014 je parle ici de notre acc\u00e8s \u00e0 des documents secrets du Cabinet. \u00c0 un moment donn\u00e9, le Secr\u00e9tariat du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor avait donn\u00e9 une cote \u00e0 toutes ses analyses et \u00e0 tous les documents aff\u00e9rents \u00e0 l'analyse des pr\u00e9sentations, puisque de par leur nature, ils pouvaient s'agir de renseignements vis\u00e9s par le secret du Cabinet et auxquels nous ne pouvons pas avoir acc\u00e8s. Nous avons soulev\u00e9 la question dans un rapport rendu public \u00e0 l'automne 2005.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151712\" data-originallang=\"en\">Par la suite, un nouveau d\u00e9cret a \u00e9t\u00e9 adopt\u00e9 par le gouvernement et nous avons d\u00e9sormais acc\u00e8s \u00e0 ces documents. Toutefois, en l'occurrence, on a donn\u00e9 une interpr\u00e9tation juridique tr\u00e8s \u00e9troite \u00e0 ce d\u00e9cret et on nous a refus\u00e9 l'acc\u00e8s que nous demandions. Nous avons eu des discussions assez anim\u00e9es avec les fonctionnaires, ce qui a abouti \u00e0 une solution, et les fonctionnaires ont re\u00e7u de nouvelles consignes.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Hon. Navdeep Bains",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151713\" data-originallang=\"en\">These were verbal?</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151713\" data-originallang=\"en\">Elles ont \u00e9t\u00e9 formul\u00e9es verbalement, n'est-pas?</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151714\" data-originallang=\"en\">I'm just saying that's why we received it. There were two reasons. One is that the e-mail and information we received were heavily redacted, because they were based on this legal opinion that has now been corrected. Treasury Board Secretariat also indicates that much of their challenge is an iterative process and is not documented. This is also an issue that we raised previously, where we believe there should be documentation on file as to the nature of the analysis and challenge, how it was carried out, and the kinds of responses. The Treasury Board Secretariat does not agree with us on that. There was a previous hearing that dealt with that issue.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151714\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je vous explique simplement pourquoi il en a \u00e9t\u00e9 ainsi. C'\u00e9tait pour deux raisons: premi\u00e8rement, les courriels et les documents que nous avons re\u00e7us avaient \u00e9t\u00e9 lourdement censur\u00e9s, parce qu'on appliquait l'opinion juridique qui d\u00e9sormais n'a plus cours. Le Secr\u00e9tariat du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor a ajout\u00e9 que son examen critique \u00e9tait en grande partie un processus interactif pour lequel il n'y avait pas de document. C'est aussi un probl\u00e8me que nous avons soulev\u00e9 auparavant car nous estimons qu'il faut que des documents soient vers\u00e9s au dossier quant \u00e0 la nature de l'analyse et de l'examen critique, \u00e0 la fa\u00e7on dont on a proc\u00e9d\u00e9 et aux r\u00e9ponses obtenues. Le Secr\u00e9tariat du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor n'est pas d'accord avec nous \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard. Il y a une autre rencontre qui a port\u00e9 sur cette question.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "The Chair",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151715\" data-originallang=\"en\">Thank you, Madam Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151716\" data-originallang=\"en\">Madam Faille.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151715\" data-originallang=\"en\">Merci, madame Fraser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151716\" data-originallang=\"en\">Madame Faille.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:15:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Meili Faille (Vaudreuil-Soulanges, BQ)",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151717\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Thank you.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151718\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Good morning, Ms. Fraser. I am pleased to be seeing you once again this week.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151719\" data-originallang=\"fr\">I will be focusing on chapter 4. My colleague here is our defence critic. He will be looking at chapter 6 with you, and he will do so capably and in detail.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151720\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Chapter 4 deals with conflict of interest, and you seem to be less than satisfied with the measures taken since the beginning by Treasury Board in this area. I undertook a little exercise: I went back over the reports published over the past 10 years where you identified conflict of interest situations. I have the impression we have seen this all before and are getting bogged down. Nothing seems to be moving forward on this issue. I am really wondering why. I would be tempted to give you a long list of the conflict of interest situations that have been identified over the past 10 years. As you know, I am interested in the relocation file. I have looked into a number of cases where a conflict of interest was reported, as well as the investigation reports.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151721\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The Michel Genest report, for example, showed that all members of the selection committee for the procurement bids were in a conflict of interest situation. I also learned about the work done by the Department of Justice on this issue. They defined what constitutes a conflict of interest and a serious conflict of interest situation. A Justice Canada report talks about \u201c[...]bribery, influence peddling, accepting benefits from persons dealing with government, accepting secret commissions, fraud, self-dealing, selling or influencing appointments and breach of trust.\u201d</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151722\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Regarding Treasury Board's MAF, some, but very little, of the work has been provided. There is still nothing about the legal provisions expected since 2007. I would like to know whether, in the exchanges you have had with people at Treasury Board, you have had the impression that they are willing to address this issue once and for all. This is ridiculous. When we were working recently on the modernization issue, I raised the topic of the Interchange Canada program, which was criticized in 2006 and 2007, when human resources practices were audited. I am extremely concerned about the direction things are taking with that program. I do not know if you can comment on that.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151717\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Merci.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151718\" data-originallang=\"fr\"> Bonjour, madame Fraser. Je suis heureuse de vous voir encore une fois cette semaine.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151719\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Je vais m'attarder au chapitre 4. Mon coll\u00e8gue ici pr\u00e9sent est porte-parole en mati\u00e8re de d\u00e9fense. Il va pour sa part vous entretenir, amplement et avec beaucoup de comp\u00e9tence, du chapitre 6. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151720\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Pour ce qui est du chapitre 4, qui traite des conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats, vous semblez insatisfaite des mesures prises depuis le d\u00e9but par le Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor dans le cadre de ce dossier. Je me suis livr\u00e9e \u00e0 un petit exercice: j'ai retrac\u00e9 les rapports publi\u00e9s au cours des 10 derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es dans lesquels vous aviez soulign\u00e9 des situations de conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats. J'ai une impression de d\u00e9j\u00e0-vu et d'enlisement. En effet, dans le cadre de ce dossier, les gens n'avancent pas. Je me demande s\u00e9rieusement pourquoi. Je serais tent\u00e9e de vous relater la longue liste des conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats relev\u00e9s au cours des 10 derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es. Comme vous le savez, je m'int\u00e9resse au dossier des r\u00e9installations. J'ai consult\u00e9 divers dossiers dans lesquels on avait soulign\u00e9 des conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats de m\u00eame que les rapports d'enqu\u00eate.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151721\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Concernant le rapport de Michel Genest, par exemple, on avait d\u00e9couvert qu'en mati\u00e8re d'approvisionnement, l'ensemble des membres du comit\u00e9 charg\u00e9 de l'\u00e9valuation des propositions s'\u00e9tait trouv\u00e9 dans une situation de conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats. Par la suite, j'ai pris connaissance des travaux que le minist\u00e8re de la Justice avait effectu\u00e9 \u00e0 ce sujet et j'ai constat\u00e9 qu'il avait d\u00e9fini ce qu'\u00e9taient un conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats et des situations graves de conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats. Dans un rapport du minist\u00e8re de la Justice on parle en anglais de \u00ab <em>[...]bribery, influence peddling, accepting benefits from persons dealing with government, accepting secret commissions, fraud, self-dealing, selling or influencing appointments and breach of trust.</em> \u00bb</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151722\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Pour ce qui est du CRG du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor, on peut encore une fois faire valoir que certains \u00e9l\u00e9ments de travaux ont \u00e9t\u00e9 fournis, mais c'est tr\u00e8s peu. Quant aux dispositions l\u00e9gales attendues depuis 2007, il n'y a toujours rien. J'aimerais savoir si, dans le cadre des \u00e9changes que vous avez eus avec les gens du Conseil du Tr\u00e9sor, vous avez eu l'impression qu'ils \u00e9taient dispos\u00e9s \u00e0 r\u00e9gler cette question une fois pour toutes. \u00c7a n'a aucun sens. Quand nous travaillions \u00e0 la question de la modernisation, r\u00e9cemment, j'ai abord\u00e9 la question du programme \u00c9changes Canada, qui a fait l'objet de critiques en 2006 et en 2007, lorsque les pratiques en mati\u00e8re de ressources humaines ont \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9valu\u00e9es. Je m'inqui\u00e8te \u00e9norm\u00e9ment de la tournure que prend ce dossier. Je ne sais pas si vous pouvez \u00e9mettre des commentaires \u00e0 ce sujet.</p>"
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{
"time": "2010-10-28 11:20:00",
"attribution": {
"en": "Ms. Sheila Fraser",
"fr": ""
},
"content": {
"en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151723\" data-originallang=\"fr\">To begin with, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that we are not satisfied with the work done by the secretariat. We clearly indicated in our report that TBS needed to create a new values and ethics code under legislation passed in 2007. But the new code still does not exist. So the 2003 code has to be used. Of course, there are rules in the public service regarding conflict of interest situations, but beyond the rules and codes, the main thing is that the secretariat does not provide solid support to the departments.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151724\" data-originallang=\"fr\">In this chapter of our report, we looked at cases identified in earlier audits. We noted that the departments had reacted and had implemented mechanisms to deal with specific cases. But they need to do much more to make public servants aware of possible conflicts of interest and their obligations in those cases. I believe that ongoing attention and education are needed so that people can recognize conflicts of interest and know what they need to do.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151725\" data-originallang=\"fr\">It should be noted, I think, that just because a person is in a conflict of interest situation does not necessarily mean that inappropriate action is then taken. A conflict of interest can arise simply because of circumstances, such as knowing a certain person very well or having ties to someone through marriage. People need to identify these situations and be sure that nothing gives the impression that an inappropriate action has taken place.</p>",
"fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2151723\" data-originallang=\"fr\">D'abord, monsieur le pr\u00e9sident, je voudrais pr\u00e9ciser que nous ne sommes pas satisfaits du travail accompli par le Secr\u00e9tariat. Nous avons clairement indiqu\u00e9 dans le rapport qu'il avait l'obligation de cr\u00e9er un nouveau code de valeurs et d'\u00e9thique en vertu d'une loi adopt\u00e9e en 2007. Or ce nouveau code n'existe toujours pas. On doit donc avoir recours au code de 2003. Il existe \u00e9videmment des r\u00e8gles, \u00e0 l'int\u00e9rieur de la fonction publique, qui traitent des situations de conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats, mais au-del\u00e0 des r\u00e8gles et des codes, le fait le plus important est que le Secr\u00e9tariat ne fournit pas un appui soutenu aux minist\u00e8res.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151724\" data-originallang=\"fr\"> Dans ce chapitre, nous nous sommes pench\u00e9s sur des cas que nous avions d\u00e9tect\u00e9s lors de v\u00e9rifications ant\u00e9rieures. Nous avons remarqu\u00e9 que les minist\u00e8res avaient r\u00e9agi et mis en oeuvre des m\u00e9canismes visant \u00e0 traiter ces cas sp\u00e9cifiques. Or ils doivent faire beaucoup plus pour sensibiliser les fonctionnaires aux possibles conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats et \u00e0 ce qu'ils doivent faire dans ces cas. Je pense qu'une attention et une sensibilisation continues sont n\u00e9cessaires pour que les gens puissent reconna\u00eetre les conflits d'int\u00e9r\u00eats et sachent quoi faire dans ces cas.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2151725\" data-originallang=\"fr\">\u00c0 mon avis, il est important de pr\u00e9ciser ici que le fait qu'une personne se soit trouv\u00e9 en situation de conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats n'implique pas n\u00e9cessairement que des choses inappropri\u00e9es se sont produites par la suite. En effet, il se peut qu'un conflit d'int\u00e9r\u00eats se produise simplement pour des raisons circonstancielles, par exemple parce qu'on conna\u00eet tr\u00e8s bien une personne, qu'on est associ\u00e9 \u00e0 quelqu'un par les liens du mariage ou pour d'autres raisons encore. Il faut que les gens identifient ces situations et s'assurent que rien ne peut donner l'impression que quelque chose d'inappropri\u00e9 a eu lieu.</p>"
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