Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2014-02-11 13:10:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Mr. Jonathan Genest-Jourdain (Manicouagan, NDP)",
        "fr": "M. Jonathan Genest-Jourdain (Manicouagan, NPD)"
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"3567222\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Mr. Speaker, I support the Northwest Territories and its effort to take over certain federal responsibilities in the north, so my speech will focus on some aspects of the devolution of environmental liabilities set out in the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567223\" data-originallang=\"fr\">There is one issue I keep coming back to: environmental liability. We talked about this when the witnesses appeared before the committee. We have already spent several hours on the subject and the legislation before us, namely Bill <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567224\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The stakeholders who appeared before the committee mentioned this aspect several times. It raises a red flag. I keep coming back to this issue, but it is also an issue that keeps turning up in many of the pieces of legislation put forward by this government with respect to the relationship between the Crown and the first nations.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567225\" data-originallang=\"fr\">When I talk about transferring environmental liabilities, I am, of course, referring to abandoned mine sites and sites that have been contaminated by oil and other pollutants.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567226\" data-originallang=\"fr\">There is just such a provision, not in the legislation before us, Bill <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>, but in the agreement it refers to, which is already available. Bill C-15 provides for the creation and implementation of regulations that will govern the relationship between the parties once everything is signed. The agreement mentions the transfer of environmental liabilities. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567227\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Once the bill is ratified and the measures implemented, a transfer will take place. The witnesses' versions differed, but the government was supposed to provide the parties with a comprehensive list of all of the abandoned mine sites and contaminated sites that were slated for rehabilitation, which implies a massive injection of funds. We know that rehabilitating contaminated sites and abandoned mine sites can cost millions of dollars, or at least hundreds of thousands.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567228\" data-originallang=\"fr\">This reminds me of the situations that arose from the First Nations Land Management Act, which provided for the same kind of transfer of environmental liability and responsibility upon signing.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567229\" data-originallang=\"fr\">In the case of the First Nations Land Management Act, it was hundreds of thousands of dollars for sites in Mashteuiatsh. Looking at the specific example of Mashteuiatsh from an empirical perspective, we know that rehabilitation and environmental assessment are very costly. That is why I would like to focus on the concept of transferring environmental liabilities today. Judging from my own experience and my own understanding of the situation, that is the real problem. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567230\" data-originallang=\"fr\">I always try to play devil's advocate, that is, to take the opposing position and try to find the flaws in the arguments made. That is quite healthy in a democratic process and in a process of discussion, dialogue, exchange and communication.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567231\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Consequently, as part of a strategy based on contradictory principles inherent in justice and administration\u2014this is where my professional background comes into play\u2014it is imperative to forge an argument that will identify elements that could be contentious or present risks that could interfere with the implementation of the planned measures in the short or medium term.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567232\" data-originallang=\"fr\">I will introduce the systematic transfer of environmental liabilities in the agreements between the Canadian government and the first nations. In this case, as I mentioned, the agreement states that the federal government retains responsibility for abandoned and contaminated mining sites that were identified prior to ratification of the agreement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567233\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The reason I spoke out in committee was primarily to ensure that an exhaustive list is given to the parties, because I do not want this to be an injurious relationship. However, we must remain lucid and conscious of the fact that sometimes the playing field is not level in negotiations because the government has many lawyers. There is a plethora of government lawyers and, in this case, they were asked to help draft the agreement and the bill we are examining today. Thus, when advising the government, its lawyers ensured that they put the government's interests first. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567234\" data-originallang=\"fr\">To come back to that exhaustive list of mining sites and contaminated sites, as soon as that list is given to the government, it will assume the liabilities indicated on that list; in other words, all sites identified prior to ratification will continue to be the responsibility of the Canadian government. However\u2014and this is why the list needs to be exhaustive\u2014if other sites are discovered after the agreement is ratified, it is the parties\u2014in this case, the local governments and band authorities\u2014that will be held responsible for rehabilitating those sites.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567235\" data-originallang=\"fr\">I would hope\u2014and this is probably the case\u2014that all parties have received legal opinions as well as a substantial amount of legal advice, but given that the balance of power can sometimes be skewed and that the Canadian government is often in a position of strength and authority, it is crucial to insist on these elements in order to avoid any potentially damaging situations.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567236\" data-originallang=\"fr\">As I indicated at the beginning of my speech, when these provisions systematically reappear, often the whole thing starts to look more and more like an adhesion contract. An adhesion contract is a contract in which everything is provided and it just needs to be signed. It is a ready-made contract, you could say. It is something that comes up over and over, and lawyers always make sure to have these kinds of clauses and measures arranged. The same kind of measures can be found in the agreement associated with Bill <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>. Basically, certain aspects of the bill are strangely similar to an adhesion contract, since they can be found in other matters specific to the fiduciary relationship between the Canadian government and first nations.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567237\" data-originallang=\"fr\">The members in the House will acknowledge the preponderance of the authority exercised by the Northwest Territories regarding the use of its resources. This observation must be clarified, however, in light of the testimony gathered in committee, which tends to demonstrate the influence that the government lawyers have when it comes to drafting legislative tools submitted for our consideration.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567238\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Representatives of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, including a panel of lawyers and experts, testified at some recent committee meetings. These experts told us that government lawyers have an influence on\u2014or at the very least, considerable involvement in\u2014the drafting. It is quite possible that the other parties, such as provincial and regional governments, as well as aboriginal communities, may have sought informed legal advice, but we know for a fact that the Canadian government has a whole fleet of highly qualified lawyers. I also want to point out that the legislator is not an individual, but a whole group of people who are assigned to the task. There is probably also a litigation section responsible for challenges of the proposed measures.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567239\" data-originallang=\"fr\">All that to say that a fleet of government lawyers were called in to work on this. That is also why I want to put this in perspective, since there may be an imbalance with respect to strength and the prejudicial nature of this whole thing.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567240\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Canada is often in a position of strength in relation to the other parties, especially in these kinds of cases. Although I have not been to the Northwest Territories myself, I know that these are remote and isolated communities. They pay astronomical costs for lawyers and legal advisors. I have seen the same thing in my own community. It is often people from outside the community who must travel at a high cost. For example, a return plane ticket for the same day between Uashat and Montreal can easily cost over $2,000. In short, these fees can be huge, in the end. Private parties, in this case the regional governments, but also the aboriginal parties, probably had to pay out of their own pockets for this legal advice. The Canadian government would not have had to do so, since it has its own large staff to answer these questions.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567241\" data-originallang=\"fr\">I submit this respectfully.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"3567222\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, tout en gardant \u00e0 l'esprit le fait que la pr\u00e9sente intervention se veut en appui aux Territoires du Nord-Ouest dans leurs efforts visant \u00e0 reprendre certaines responsabilit\u00e9s f\u00e9d\u00e9rales dans le Nord, il m'appara\u00eet essentiel d'insister sur certains \u00e9l\u00e9ments de d\u00e9l\u00e9gation du passif environnemental pr\u00e9vus dans l'entente sur le transfert des responsabilit\u00e9s li\u00e9es aux terres et aux ressources des Territoires du Nord-Ouest.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567223\" data-originallang=\"fr\">On peut d\u00e9j\u00e0 constater qu'il y a une constante dans mon discours.Je parle ici du passif environnemental. C'est une des mati\u00e8res dont on a discut\u00e9 lorsque les t\u00e9moins sont venus au comit\u00e9. \u00c7a fait d\u00e9j\u00e0 plusieurs heures qu'on accorde \u00e0 la mati\u00e8re et \u00e0 l'outil l\u00e9gislatif devant nous, soit le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567224\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Les intervenants qui se sont pr\u00e9sent\u00e9s au comit\u00e9 ont mentionn\u00e9 cet \u00e9l\u00e9ment \u00e0 quelques reprises. \u00c7a d\u00e9clenche une alarme. C'est une constante dans mon discours, mais c'en est \u00e9galement une qui r\u00e9appara\u00eet dans de nombreux outils mis en avant par ce gouvernement, dans le cadre des relations qui doivent \u00eatre entretenues entre la Couronne et les Premi\u00e8res Nations. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567225\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Lorsque je parle du transfert du passif environnemental, je fais bien s\u00fbr r\u00e9f\u00e9rence aux sites miniers abandonn\u00e9s, ainsi qu'aux sites souvent contamin\u00e9s par des hydrocarbures ou d'autres polluants. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567226\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Bref, le m\u00eame type de clause se retrouve cette fois-ci non pas dans l'outil l\u00e9gislatif qu'est le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>, mais bien dans l'entente qui y est reli\u00e9e et qui est d\u00e9j\u00e0 disponible. En effet, le projet de loi C-15 pr\u00e9voit la r\u00e9daction et la mise en oeuvre d'un r\u00e8glement qui r\u00e9gira les relations entre les parties, une fois que le tout sera sign\u00e9. Il y a dans cette entente la mention du transfert de passif environnemental. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567227\" data-originallang=\"fr\">\u00c0 partir de la ratification et du moment o\u00f9 ces mesures seront appliqu\u00e9es, un transfert s'effectuera. Les versions des t\u00e9moins diff\u00e9raient, mais le gouvernement devait fournir aux parties une liste exhaustive qui faisait le compte de tous les sites miniers abandonn\u00e9s et des sites contamin\u00e9s qui m\u00e9ritaient une remise en \u00e9tat et, par cons\u00e9quent, une injection massive de fonds. On sait que la remise en \u00e9tat de sites contamin\u00e9s et de sites miniers abandonn\u00e9s peut se chiffrer \u00e0 plusieurs millions de dollars et, au minimum, \u00e0 quelques centaines de milliers de dollars. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567228\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Je pense entre autres \u00e0 des situations qui d\u00e9coulaient de la Loi sur la gestion des terres des premi\u00e8res nations qui pr\u00e9voyait \u00e9galement le m\u00eame type de transfert de responsabilit\u00e9s et de passif environnemental \u00e0 la signature. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567229\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Dans le cas de la Loi sur la gestion des terres des premi\u00e8res nations, c'\u00e9tait quelques centaines de milliers de dollars pour des parcelles de terre \u00e0 Mashteuiatsh. Si je reprends l'exemple concret et si je donne dans l'empirique, en ce qui concerne la communaut\u00e9 de Mashteuiatsh, on sait que la remise en \u00e9tat et l'\u00e9valuation environnementale engendrent des co\u00fbts substantiels. C'est la raison pour laquelle j'insisterai aujourd'hui sur cette notion de transfert de passif environnemental. En effet, c'est l\u00e0 o\u00f9 le b\u00e2t blesse, selon ma propre expertise et ma propre appr\u00e9ciation de la situation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567230\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Je m'efforce toujours d'\u00eatre l'avocat du diable, c'est-\u00e0-dire de verser dans le discours adverse et de tenter de trouver les failles dans un argumentaire donn\u00e9, ce qui est assez sain dans un processus d\u00e9mocratique et dans un processus de discussion, de dialogue, d'\u00e9change et de communication.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567231\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Par cons\u00e9quent, selon une option calqu\u00e9e sur les principes contradictoires propres aux sph\u00e8res judiciaires et administratives, de l\u00e0 la d\u00e9formation professionnelle, il est imp\u00e9ratif de forger un plan argumentaire permettant l'identification des \u00e9l\u00e9ments comportant un potentiel contentieux ou pr\u00e9sentant des al\u00e9as susceptibles d'interf\u00e9rer avec la mise en oeuvre des mesures projet\u00e9es \u00e0 court ou \u00e0 moyen terme.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567232\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Je vais introduire le transfert syst\u00e9matique du passif environnemental dans les ententes entre l'\u00c9tat canadien et les Premi\u00e8res Nations. Dans ce cas-ci, comme je l'ai indiqu\u00e9, l'entente pr\u00e9voit que le f\u00e9d\u00e9ral conserve la responsabilit\u00e9 des sites miniers abandonn\u00e9s et contamin\u00e9s qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 identifi\u00e9s pr\u00e9alablement \u00e0 la ratification de l'entente. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567233\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Si j'ai fait des interventions au comit\u00e9, c'\u00e9tait d'abord pour m'assurer du caract\u00e8re exhaustif de la liste transmise aux parties, parce que loin de moi l'id\u00e9e d'une relation l\u00e9sionnelle. Toutefois, il faut tout de m\u00eame demeurer lucide et conscient du fait que, dans la balance du pouvoir de n\u00e9gociation, les d\u00e9s sont quelques fois fauss\u00e9s, puisque les juristes de l'\u00c9tat sont en grand nombre. Il y a une armada de juristes de l'\u00c9tat et, dans ce cas-ci, ces derniers ont \u00e9t\u00e9 appel\u00e9s \u00e0 contribution lors de la r\u00e9daction de l'entente, mais \u00e9galement du projet de loi soumis \u00e0 notre attention aujourd'hui. De l\u00e0, dans le conseil prodigu\u00e9 au gouvernement, les juristes de l'\u00c9tat se sont assur\u00e9s de faire d'abord et avant tout valoir les int\u00e9r\u00eats de l'\u00c9tat.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567234\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Pour en revenir \u00e0 cette liste exhaustive des sites miniers et des sites contamin\u00e9s, le gouvernement, \u00e0 partir du moment o\u00f9 cette liste lui est fournie, va assumer le passif qui est pr\u00e9vu sur cette liste, c'est-\u00e0-dire que tous les sites qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 identifi\u00e9s pr\u00e9alablement \u00e0 la ratification vont demeurer la responsabilit\u00e9 de l'\u00c9tat canadien. Par contre \u2014 et de l\u00e0 la n\u00e9cessit\u00e9 de s'assurer que la liste est vraiment exhaustive \u2014, si d'autres sites sont d\u00e9couverts \u00e0 la suite de la ratification, ce sont les parties, dans ce cas-ci les gouvernements locaux et les autorit\u00e9s tribales, qui vont se voir tenus responsables de la remise en \u00e9tat de ces sites. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567235\" data-originallang=\"fr\">J'ose penser, et c'est fort probablement le cas, que toutes les parties ont re\u00e7u des avis juridiques et un apport substantiel et appr\u00e9ciable sur le plan des conseils juridiques, mais sachant que la balance des pouvoirs peut parfois \u00eatre fauss\u00e9e et que l'\u00c9tat canadien se trouve souvent en position de force et d'autorit\u00e9, c'est essentiel d'insister sur ces \u00e9l\u00e9ments pour \u00e9viter toute situation possiblement l\u00e9sionnaire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567236\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Souvent, comme je l'indiquais au d\u00e9but de mon intervention, lorsque ces dispositions r\u00e9apparaissent de fa\u00e7on syst\u00e9matique, le tout ressemble de plus en plus \u00e0 un contrat d'adh\u00e9sion. Un contrat d'adh\u00e9sion est un contrat dans lequel tout est fourni et qu'il suffit de signer, tout simplement. C'est un contrat pr\u00eat-\u00e0-porter, si je peux me permettre l'expression. C'est quelque chose qui revient constamment, et les juristes s'assurent toujours d'avoir ce type de clauses et de mesures pr\u00e9vues. On retrouve le m\u00eame type de mesures dans cette entente li\u00e9e au projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"6349930\" href=\"/bills/41-2/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to replace the Northwest Territories Act to implement certain provisions of the Northwest Territories Lands and Resources Devolution Agreement and to repeal or make amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, the Northwest Territories Waters Act, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, other Acts and certain orders and regulations\">C-15</a>. Bref, certains aspects du projet de loi ressemblent \u00e9trangement \u00e0 un contrat d'adh\u00e9sion, puisqu'on les retrouve dans d'autres mati\u00e8res propres aux relations fiduciaires qui doivent s'observer entre l'\u00c9tat canadien et les nations aborig\u00e8nes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567237\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Les intervenants \u00e0 la Chambre conviendront de la pr\u00e9pond\u00e9rance de l'autorit\u00e9 exerc\u00e9e par les Territoires du Nord-Ouest en ce qui a trait \u00e0 l'utilisation de leurs ressources. Ce constat doit par contre \u00eatre nuanc\u00e9 \u00e0 la lumi\u00e8re des interventions compil\u00e9es en comit\u00e9, qui tendent \u00e0 d\u00e9montrer l'ascendant des juristes de l'\u00c9tat dans le cadre de la r\u00e9daction des outils l\u00e9gislatifs soumis \u00e0 notre attention. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567238\" data-originallang=\"fr\">D'ailleurs, on a re\u00e7u, lors des derni\u00e8res s\u00e9ances de comit\u00e9, les repr\u00e9sentants d'Affaires autochtones et D\u00e9veloppement du Nord Canada, dont un panel compos\u00e9 de juristes et d'experts en la mati\u00e8re. Ces experts sont venus t\u00e9moigner de l'ascendant \u2014 ou \u00e0 tout le moins, de la tr\u00e8s grande implication \u2014 des juristes de l'\u00c9tat dans la r\u00e9daction. Il est fort probable que les autres parties, soit les gouvernements provinciaux et r\u00e9gionaux ainsi que les communaut\u00e9s aborig\u00e8nes, aient \u00e9galement pu b\u00e9n\u00e9ficier de conseils juridiques avis\u00e9s, mais on sait pertinemment que le gouvernement canadien a \u00e0 sa disposition une armada de juristes des plus qualifi\u00e9s. Il faut comprendre \u00e9galement que lorsque l'on parle du l\u00e9gislateur, on ne parle pas d'un individu en tant que tel, mais d'un pouvoir, d'une <em>workforce</em>. Ce sont des gens qui sont assign\u00e9s. Il y a probablement \u00e9galement une section contentieuse qui doit se charger des contestations des mesures mises en avant.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567239\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Tout cela pour dire qu'une armada de juristes de l'\u00c9tat ont \u00e9t\u00e9 appel\u00e9s et mis \u00e0 contribution dans le cadre de cette r\u00e9daction. C'est la raison \u00e9galement pour laquelle je remets le tout en perspective, puisqu'il peut y avoir un d\u00e9s\u00e9quilibre sur le plan des forces et du caract\u00e8re l\u00e9sionnaire de tout cela. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567240\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Bref, l'\u00c9tat canadien se retrouve souvent en position de force face \u00e0 d'autres parties, surtout dans ces cas-ci. Bien que je ne me sois pas d\u00e9plac\u00e9 aux Territoires du Nord-Ouest personnellement, je sais pertinemment que ce sont des communaut\u00e9s \u00e9loign\u00e9es et isol\u00e9es. Des co\u00fbts astronomiques sont associ\u00e9s \u00e0 ses propres juristes et conseillers sur le plan juridique. Pour l'avoir vu dans ma propre communaut\u00e9, ce sont souvent des gens de l'ext\u00e9rieur que l'on doit faire voyager \u00e0 fort prix. \u00c0 titre indicatif, un billet d'avion aller-retour dans la m\u00eame journ\u00e9e entre Uashat et Montr\u00e9al peut facilement monter \u00e0 plus de 2 000 $. Bref, ces honoraires peuvent \u00eatre faramineux au final. Les parties priv\u00e9es, dans ce cas-ci les gouvernements r\u00e9gionaux mais \u00e9galement les parties aborig\u00e8nes, ont fort probablement d\u00fb d\u00e9bourser de leur propre poche pour obtenir ces avis et ces conseils juridiques, ce que l'\u00c9tat canadien, par la force des choses, n'a pas eu besoin de faire, puisqu'il dispose d\u00e9j\u00e0 d'un effectif de taille pour r\u00e9pondre \u00e0 ces questions.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3567241\" data-originallang=\"fr\">Sur ce, je soumets le tout humblement.</p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2014/2/11/jonathan-genest-jourdain-1/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/jonathan-genest-jourdain/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/4059/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "8228336",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": "Initiatives Minist\u00e9rielles"
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Northwest Territories Devolution Act",
        "fr": "Loi sur le transfert de responsabilit\u00e9s aux Territoires du Nord-Ouest"
    },
    "h3": {
        "en": "Motions in Amendment",
        "fr": "Motions d'amendement"
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2014/2/11/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2014%2F2%2F11%2F"
    }
}