Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2013-04-30 12:05:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Mr. Matthew Kellway (Beaches\u2014East York, NDP)",
        "fr": "M. Matthew Kellway (Beaches\u2014East York, NPD)"
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"3300030\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, my friend did not know I was coming. I am sure he would have withheld those comments had he known.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300031\" data-originallang=\"en\"> I will be splitting my time with the member for <a data-HoCid=\"170457\" href=\"/politicians/brian-masse/\" title=\"Brian Masse\">Windsor West</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300032\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is great to talk about Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5156729\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-15</a> today. My colleagues and I support the bill at third reading. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300033\" data-originallang=\"en\">Members may recall that I spoke in opposition to the bill at second reading. I applaud the great efforts of my colleagues on the defence committee, as have others in the House today, who put forward 22 amendments and five subamendments and made a great effort to change the bill. As has been pointed out today, none of this was successful, but the bill was amended at committee: the Conservatives saw fit to amend their own mistakes, which is always helpful. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300034\" data-originallang=\"en\">That is not to say that we support this legislation wholeheartedly; it is somewhat reluctantly that we do so. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300035\" data-originallang=\"en\">I want to comment on this issue for a moment, because it has been the subject of much debate. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300036\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is a bit tricky, of course, to support a government bill at third reading. We heard the <a data-HoCid=\"111558\" href=\"/politicians/peter-mackay/\" title=\"Peter MacKay\">Minister of National Defence</a> waxing philosophical earlier today about not letting perfection get in the way of progress; on the other hand, we heard the Liberal defence critic express his confusion and uncertainty about how and why the NDP could support this legislation. The challenge is more difficult than either of those extremes would suggest.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300037\" data-originallang=\"en\">This is not so much a philosophical matter; it is really a very practical one. Justice systems, as informed as they are by theory and philosophy, have very real, profound and practical implications for those who are subjected to them, and this is obviously the case before us. For reasons that we all seem to agree with, this is about balancing the need for quick and expeditious military justice against the need to keep discipline in the forces, while yet providing fairness for forces members. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300038\" data-originallang=\"en\">Today we are considering a unique military justice system and its need for discipline, but we also need to take into consideration the issue of time. That has to weigh heavily on our considerations about whether to support the bill or not. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300039\" data-originallang=\"en\">For all the talk about their support for the military, the Liberals did nothing with their majority government to amend the act, in spite of having before them the report of a justice who made 88 recommendations. The Conservatives have been in government now for seven long years and have similarly opted to do nothing up to this point. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300040\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is because this legislation has such a long history that we need to consider what we can agree to and what we must agree to in order to make progress and move this legislation forward. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300041\" data-originallang=\"en\">I will not recite the full history. I have no time for that today, but I will give a short summary to illustrate the point.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300042\" data-originallang=\"en\">The bill had its genesis in a 2003 report on the Canadian military justice system by a former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer. That report contained 88 recommendations for change and was suggestive of some significant deficiencies in Canada's military justice system.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300043\" data-originallang=\"en\">The bill is also a legislative response to a 2009 report by the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs dealing with these very same matters.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300044\" data-originallang=\"en\">In December 2011 yet another military justice report was presented to the government, this time by a former chief justice of the Ontario Superior Court, the Hon. Patrick LeSage. I would note that the Conservative government sat on that report for a year or so before finally tabling it in June 2012.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300045\" data-originallang=\"en\">To date, only 28 of the recommendations from that original Lamer report of 2003 have actually been implemented, some in the form of legislation, some as regulations, and some as changes in practice. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300046\" data-originallang=\"en\">We have even lost some ground, it needs to be noted. In the previous Parliament, Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4620437\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-41/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-41</a> died on the order paper. That bill included important updates to the National Defence Act that are interestingly absent from the bill we are considering today. The change got moved back upfield, and that is disappointing.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300047\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, I think the length of time that the current government and the previous Liberal government have taken to bring some sense of fairness to the members of our armed forces with respect to the justice system means that we need to consider very seriously what we need to do now, because we do not know when we will get our next opportunity to make change. It is important that we make tangible change to this system so that it is a military justice system worthy of this country and worthy of the commitment that members of the Canadian Armed Forces make to this country.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300048\" data-originallang=\"en\">As frustrating as all of that is, we focus on the progress that is being made. We see some progress, although I would shy away from calling it significant. It comes in the form of greater flexibility, for example, for the sentencing process to more closely parallel the civil criminal justice system. It would provide for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, et cetera; it would modify the composition of a court martial panel; it would modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and would allow an accused person to waive limitation periods; and it would clarify the responsibilities of the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300049\" data-originallang=\"en\">It would also make amendments to the delegation of the powers of the Chief of the Defence Staff as the final authority in the grievance process.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300050\" data-originallang=\"en\">Above all, as tangible as these changes are, one stands out as critically important and most certainly worthy of support. It is an issue that we in the NDP have pushed for many years, including in the previous Parliament, and we actually had made some progress with it in Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4620437\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-41/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-41</a>. It is this issue more than any other that tips the balance in favour of supporting this bill, and it has to do with the number of offences that could result in a criminal record.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300051\" data-originallang=\"en\">The NDP, through the long history of the bill, has consistently pushed for a reduction in the number of these offences. With this amendment from Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5156729\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-15</a> emerging out of committee, it would be the case that about 95% of cases would not attract a criminal record. In addition, those who have been previously convicted of these offences would have their records expunged.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300052\" data-originallang=\"en\">This is an important issue because many of the offences that we have been focusing on do not generally have a civilian equivalent. They are, for example, offences described in section 85 of the act that involve threatening or insulting language or contemptuous behaviour toward a superior officer. Section 86 involves failing to stop someone from deserting, and section 97 deals with drunkenness. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300053\" data-originallang=\"en\">We have long considered it unjust, as have many other experts who have weighed in on this matter, that convictions for those kinds of offences through this kind of summary trial process could result in criminal records that could follow members of the Canadian Armed Forces into their civilian lives.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300054\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is important to note that the summary trial is used to try about 95% of disciplinary cases in the forces. It is this process that is used to effect a balance between the competing interests of discipline and returning a soldier to service. As such, fairness and justice are compromised. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300055\" data-originallang=\"en\">For example, a commanding officer or a designated superior officer could act as the judge, and there would be no legal counsel, no appeal, not even a transcript of the file. We consider it unfair for criminal records to flow from that and follow a soldier into civilian life, so we are pleased to see that amendment and we will be supporting the bill.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"3300030\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, mon coll\u00e8gue ignorait que j\u2019allais venir, sinon je suis s\u00fbr qu\u2019il se serait gard\u00e9 de faire ces commentaires. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300031\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je vais partager mon temps de parole avec le d\u00e9put\u00e9 de <a data-HoCid=\"170457\" href=\"/politicians/brian-masse/\" title=\"Brian Masse\">Windsor-Ouest</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300032\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je suis heureux de prendre la parole au sujet du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5156729\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-15</a>, que mes coll\u00e8gues et moi entendons appuyer \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape de la troisi\u00e8me lecture. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300033\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les d\u00e9put\u00e9s se souviendront que je me suis prononc\u00e9 contre le projet de loi \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape de la deuxi\u00e8me lecture. Je salue mes coll\u00e8gues du Comit\u00e9 de la d\u00e9fense qui, comme d\u2019autres aujourd\u2019hui \u00e0 la Chambre, n\u2019ont pas m\u00e9nag\u00e9 leur peine. En effet, ils ont pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 22 amendements et cinq sous-amendements afin d\u2019am\u00e9liorer le projet de loi. Comme quelqu\u2019un l\u2019a fait remarquer aujourd\u2019hui, aucun n\u2019a abouti, mais le projet de loi a \u00e9t\u00e9 modifi\u00e9 en comit\u00e9, car les conservateurs se sont rendu compte qu\u2019il fallait qu\u2019ils corrigent leurs propres erreurs, alors c\u2019est d\u00e9j\u00e0 quelque chose.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300034\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Cela ne veut pas dire que nous appuyons ce projet de loi avec enthousiasme, c\u2019est presque \u00e0 contrec\u0153ur que nous le faisons.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300035\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Permettez moi de dire quelques mots l\u00e0-dessus, car c\u2019est un sujet dont on a beaucoup parl\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300036\" data-originallang=\"en\"> C\u2019est un peu d\u00e9licat, bien s\u00fbr, d\u2019appuyer un projet de loi du gouvernement \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape de la troisi\u00e8me lecture. Le <a data-HoCid=\"111558\" href=\"/politicians/peter-mackay/\" title=\"Peter MacKay\">ministre de la D\u00e9fense nationale</a> a jou\u00e9 au philosophe tout \u00e0 l\u2019heure en disant que le mieux \u00e9tait souvent l\u2019ennemi du bien; et du c\u00f4t\u00e9 des lib\u00e9raux, leur porte-parole en mati\u00e8re de d\u00e9fense a dit \u00eatre surpris et ne pas comprendre pourquoi le NPD appuie ce projet de loi. La d\u00e9cision est plus difficile que ces deux positions extr\u00eames ne le laissent entendre.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300037\" data-originallang=\"en\"> La question n\u2019est pas tant philosophique que tr\u00e8s concr\u00e8te. Les syst\u00e8mes de justice ont beau s\u2019arcbouter sur la th\u00e9orie et la philosophie, ils n\u2019en ont pas moins des cons\u00e9quences tr\u00e8s r\u00e9elles et tr\u00e8s concr\u00e8tes pour les justiciables, et c\u2019est exactement la situation que nous avons aujourd\u2019hui. Pour des raisons que nous semblons tous accepter, nous recherchons un juste \u00e9quilibre entre, d\u2019une part, la n\u00e9cessit\u00e9 d\u2019avoir une justice militaire rapide et efficace pour maintenir la discipline dans les rangs, et, d\u2019autre part, l\u2019\u00e9quit\u00e9 pour tous les membres des Forces canadiennes. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300038\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Aujourd\u2019hui, nous examinons un syst\u00e8me de justice militaire unique, dont l\u2019objectif doit \u00eatre le maintien de la discipline, mais nous devons aussi tenir compte du facteur temps. Cela doit grandement contribuer \u00e0 d\u00e9terminer si on appuie ou non le projet de loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300039\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Ils ont beau d\u00e9clarer leur appui aux militaires, les lib\u00e9raux n\u2019ont rien fait, quand ils \u00e9taient majoritaires, pour modifier la loi, alors qu\u2019un juge leur avait remis un rapport assorti de 88 recommandations. Les conservateurs sont au pouvoir depuis sept longues ann\u00e9es, et eux aussi, ils ont pr\u00e9f\u00e9r\u00e9 ne rien faire jusqu\u2019\u00e0 aujourd\u2019hui. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300040\" data-originallang=\"en\"> C\u2019est parce que ce projet de loi a une longue histoire que nous devons voir ce sur quoi nous pouvons nous entendre et ce sur quoi nous devons nous entendre si nous voulons vraiment progresser.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300041\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Je ne vais pas refaire l\u2019historique de la question, je n\u2019en ai pas le temps aujourd\u2019hui, mais je fais en faire un bref r\u00e9sum\u00e9 pour illustrer mon argument. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300042\" data-originallang=\"en\"> L\u2019origine du projet de loi remonte \u00e0 un rapport d\u2019un ancien juge en chef de la Cour supr\u00eame, le tr\u00e8s honorable Antonio Lamer. Le rapport portait sur le syst\u00e8me de justice des Forces canadiennes et \u00e9tait assorti de 88 recommandations visant \u00e0 combler des lacunes importantes de ce syst\u00e8me.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300043\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Le projet de loi est aussi la r\u00e9ponse l\u00e9gislative \u00e0 un rapport de 2009 du Comit\u00e9 s\u00e9natorial permanent des affaires juridiques et constitutionnelles qui portait pr\u00e9cis\u00e9ment sur ces questions.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300044\" data-originallang=\"en\"> En d\u00e9cembre 2011, un autre rapport sur la justice militaire a \u00e9t\u00e9 soumis au gouvernement, cette fois par un ancien juge en chef de la Cour sup\u00e9rieure de l\u2019Ontario, l\u2019honorable Patrick LeSage. Je ferais observer que le gouvernement conservateur l\u2019a mis de c\u00f4t\u00e9 pendant un an environ avant de se d\u00e9cider enfin \u00e0 le d\u00e9poser, en juin 2012.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300045\" data-originallang=\"en\">Jusqu\u2019\u00e0 ce jour, seules 28 recommandations du rapport Lamer de 2003 ont \u00e9t\u00e9 mises en oeuvre, par voie l\u00e9gislative ou r\u00e9glementaire, ou par la modification de certaines pratiques</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300046\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous avons m\u00eame perdu du terrain, il faut le dire. Dans la l\u00e9gislature pr\u00e9c\u00e9dente, le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4620437\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-41/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-41</a> est mort au <em>Feuilleton</em>. Il proposait d\u2019importantes mises \u00e0 jour de la Loi sur la d\u00e9fense nationale, qui ne sont curieusement pas reconduites dans le projet de loi actuel. On a fait un pas en arri\u00e8re, et c\u2019est dommage. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300047\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela dit, vu le temps qu\u2019il a fallu au gouvernement actuel et \u00e0 l\u2019ancien gouvernement lib\u00e9ral pour apporter un tant soit peu de justice aux membres de nos forces arm\u00e9es, je pense que nous devons r\u00e9fl\u00e9chir s\u00e9rieusement \u00e0 ce que nous devons faire maintenant, car nous ne savons pas si une autre occasion se repr\u00e9sentera. Il est important que nous apportions des changements concrets pour que le syst\u00e8me de justice militaire soit digne de notre pays et digne du d\u00e9vouement qu\u2019ont les membres des Forces canadiennes pour notre pays. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300048\" data-originallang=\"en\">Aussi frustrant que \u00e7a puisse \u00eatre, il faut n\u00e9anmoins regarder quelles am\u00e9liorations on nous propose, car il y en a, m\u00eame si je ne peux gu\u00e8re les qualifier d\u2019importantes. Il y a d\u2019abord une plus grande souplesse, par exemple, pour que le processus de d\u00e9termination de la peine soit plus align\u00e9 sur le syst\u00e8me p\u00e9nal qui s'applique aux civils. Le projet de loi pr\u00e9voit aussi de nouvelles peines, notamment l\u2019absolution inconditionnelle; il modifie la composition du comit\u00e9 de la cour martiale; il modifie la prescription applicable aux proc\u00e8s sommaires et pr\u00e9voit la possibilit\u00e9 de s\u2019y soustraire \u00e0 la demande d\u2019un accus\u00e9; et il \u00e9nonce les attributions du grand pr\u00e9v\u00f4t des Forces canadiennes. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300049\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il modifie \u00e9galement le pouvoir de d\u00e9l\u00e9gation du chef d\u2019\u00e9tat-major de la D\u00e9fense en tant qu\u2019autorit\u00e9 de derni\u00e8re instance dans le processus de traitement des griefs.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300050\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mais surtout, bien que ces changements soient d\u00e9j\u00e0 tr\u00e8s concrets, il y en a un qui est extr\u00eamement important et qui m\u00e9rite notre appui, car c\u2019est quelque chose que le NPD r\u00e9clame depuis longtemps, et notamment pendant la derni\u00e8re l\u00e9gislature, et nous avions en fait progress\u00e9 \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard avec le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4620437\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-41/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-41</a>. C\u2019est cet \u00e9l\u00e9ment qui, plus que tout le reste, nous incite \u00e0 appuyer ce projet de loi, et je veux parler du nombre d'infractions qui peuvent donner lieu \u00e0 un casier judiciaire. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300051\" data-originallang=\"en\">Depuis les tout d\u00e9buts de ce projet de loi, le NPD a toujours milit\u00e9 en faveur d\u2019une r\u00e9duction du nombre de ces infractions. Avec cet amendement au projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5156729\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-15/\" title=\"An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-15</a>, qui \u00e9mane du comit\u00e9, environ 95 % des infractions ne donneront pas lieu \u00e0 un casier judiciaire. De plus, ceux qui ont d\u00e9j\u00e0 \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9clar\u00e9s coupables de ces infractions verront leur casier judiciaire blanchi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300052\" data-originallang=\"en\">C\u2019est important parce que beaucoup de ces infractions n\u2019ont g\u00e9n\u00e9ralement pas leur \u00e9quivalent dans le civil. Il s\u2019agit par exemple des infractions d\u00e9crites \u00e0 l\u2019article 85 de la Loi sur la d\u00e9fense nationale et qui concernent des menaces ou des insultes verbales \u00e0 un sup\u00e9rieur, ou une conduite m\u00e9prisante \u00e0 son \u00e9gard, ou encore, \u00e0 l\u2019article 86, le fait de ne pas emp\u00eacher quelqu\u2019un de d\u00e9serter, et \u00e0 l\u2019article 97, le fait de se trouver en \u00e9tat d\u2019ivresse.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300053\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous avons toujours consid\u00e9r\u00e9 injuste, \u00e0 l\u2019instar de bien des sp\u00e9cialistes de la question, que des infractions punissables par proc\u00e8s sommaire puissent donner lieu \u00e0 un casier judiciaire que les membres des Forces canadiennes tra\u00eenent parfois avec eux jusqu\u2019\u00e0 leur retour dans la vie civile.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300054\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il convient de noter que, dans les Forces canadiennes, on recourt au proc\u00e8s sommaire dans environ 95 % des cas disciplinaires. C\u2019est ainsi qu\u2019on trouve un \u00e9quilibre entre ces int\u00e9r\u00eats oppos\u00e9s que sont la discipline et le retour du soldat dans les rangs. On peut dire que c\u2019est un compromis entre l\u2019\u00e9quit\u00e9 et la justice. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"3300055\" data-originallang=\"en\">Par exemple, un commandant ou un sup\u00e9rieur d\u00e9sign\u00e9 pourra servir de juge, et il n\u2019y aura pas d\u2019avocat, pas d\u2019appel et m\u00eame pas de transcription officielle. Nous estimons qu\u2019il est injuste que cela donne lieu \u00e0 un casier judiciaire qui peut suivre le militaire jusqu\u2019\u00e0 son retour dans la vie civile; nous sommes donc satisfaits de voir que cet amendement a \u00e9t\u00e9 adopt\u00e9 et nous appuierons de ce fait le projet de loi. </p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2013/4/30/matthew-kellway-2/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/matthew-kellway/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/4071/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "7989896",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": "Initiatives minist\u00e9rielles"
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act",
        "fr": "Loi visant \u00e0 renforcer la justice militaire pour la d\u00e9fense du Canada"
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2013/4/30/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2013%2F4%2F30%2F"
    }
}