Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2012-09-18 13:40:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Hon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.)",
        "fr": "L'hon. Judy Sgro (York-Ouest, Lib.)"
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2974076\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, before I begin my comments I have to acknowledge the comments from my colleague from <a data-HoCid=\"170673\" href=\"/politicians/jinny-sims/\" title=\"Jinny Sims\">Newton\u2014North Delta</a>. Clearly we are talking about trying to engage in getting a piece of legislation to the best that it can be. On this side of the House, in the Senate and elsewhere, we have lots of people who have various backgrounds and who could be very helpful. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974077\" data-originallang=\"en\">If the goal is to strengthen a piece of legislation then it should be taken up by all of us in open debate and discussion, which is what is supposed to happen in the House. The government side seems to feel it has done all its work already and is prepared to move forward on this piece of legislation. It is clearly our intent to do what we were elected to do, which is to look at a piece of legislation, offer our comments and hope to improve on it. With the many smart people that we have in the House, on all sides, I am quite confident that would happen if we would just allow democracy to do what it is supposed to do, which is to allow us all to participate in a proper manner.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974078\" data-originallang=\"en\">As the Liberal Party critic for the status of women I am particularly pleased to be able to speak to the bill. I had been working on this issue for well over a year now when I started getting many calls about sexual harassment from other members of the RCMP. I am pleased to see that the government has responded to the issue and the pleas from Commissioner Paulson and others to start to make some legislative improvements and untie the commissioner's hands. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974079\" data-originallang=\"en\">Is it enough? In its present form, I do not think so, but that is exactly what we are going to do between the House and the committee. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974080\" data-originallang=\"en\">As most members will know, the issue surrounding sexual harassment and workplace bullying within the RCMP is one that many of us have been hearing about and getting involved in. It is unfortunate, however, that it took so much to finally get the government to reluctantly take the step forward to reform the RCMP. However, it is a first step. Let us take it one step at a time.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974081\" data-originallang=\"en\">From the outset I want to make it very clear that I, and I believe everybody else in the House, have nothing but the utmost respect for the RCMP and all of the officers in various divisions and cities who work so much to keep us all safe. Over the years the force has been an honourable, proud and iconic symbol for our country. When asked what they think of Canada, one of the first things people say is the RCMP and their red uniforms. We are very proud of them. I would hope that, as a result of some of the changes that are coming forward and the work of Commissioner Paulson and others, we will see those changes happen. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974082\" data-originallang=\"en\">Despite its legacy, in more recent years the force has received a very black eye due primarily to a failure to address certain internal cultural realities that unfortunately cast the RCMP in a very negative light. Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> is perhaps the first step down the road toward addressing some of these issues. I say some of these issues because I am not convinced that this legislation is going to address all of the issues at hand. I fear it will miss the mark if the government is not prepared to hear from those affected. This is not just a problem with process. It goes much deeper than that. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974083\" data-originallang=\"en\">A short time ago I was speaking to Senator Rom\u00e9o Dallaire, who all of us know. We are familiar with the heroic deeds of Senator Dallaire in the military context. During that conversation the senator made connections between the military of the early 90s and the RCMP of today. We all remember some of the challenges faced by DND in the early 90s. Most of these problems revolved around a culture that had not changed or kept pace with the times. There were terrible headlines and terrible comments coming from a variety of different quarters. As a result, the public confidence in the military was again shaken and real change was demanded. The culture of the military at that time needed to be modernized. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974084\" data-originallang=\"en\">Much of what we are talking about in Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> is an attempt to move forward. It is about modernization. It is about things that were not acceptable 20 years ago but have managed to continue on. Women, in many cases, are the victims of sexual harassment in a variety of different avenues. Especially when we get into places like the military or policing, somehow there seems to be an opportunity for more bullying and sexual harassment. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974085\" data-originallang=\"en\">The Liberal government had a problem on its hands in trying to deal with the outcome of what was very negative publicity in and around our armed forces. The Liberal government at the time made those changes. It modernized DND and the military. It put in place a senior management team that instituted far-reaching change in the Canadian military. It was put in place specifically to change the military culture of how people treated each other, how they treated people at different levels, how they needed to respect each other, and that harassment should not exist in that kind of culture. That was real leadership and that kind of leadership is again needed in the context of the sexual harassment and workplace bullying that we are hearing about within the RCMP. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974086\" data-originallang=\"en\">Even the commissioner is asking for this. Commissioner Paulson was at the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. He effectively said that he needed changes to the legislation that would untie his hands so that he would be able to deal effectively with those he knows are not following the rules as they should be followed. I want to be optimistic but I am not seeing that level of leadership as much as I am seeing a careful response based in a public relations strategy.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974087\" data-originallang=\"en\">That is part of the reason why it is so important for there to be a debate in the House and for this legislation to go to committee, where it will have a true opportunity to be debated and strengthened so that this is not a public relations strategy and we really will attempt to fix the problems that we all know exist in the organization.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974088\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is a serious move for 138 people to file harassment charges against the RCMP. It certainly is a career ending move, but it should not be that. Those people who came forward know that their careers are effectively over, but they felt strongly enough about their belief in the RCMP that they wanted to see a change come about anyway.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974089\" data-originallang=\"en\">It should not have taken a public appeal from the Commissioner of the RCMP, either, to prompt a government response to the problems within the RCMP. That was reckless on the part of the government. Clearly the commissioner felt the only way to say this publicly was at the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. He felt that was necessary. If we were going to see change, that was the only way for him to come out and make such a statement. Even now, according to the <em>The Hill Times</em>, government MPs on the Standing Committee on the Status of Women are reluctant to really deal with this matter in an open and transparent manner. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974090\" data-originallang=\"en\">I give credit to the standing committee, of which I am also a vice-chair, for dealing with the whole issue of harassment and sexual harassment. Rather than focusing strictly on the RCMP, as I would have preferred us to do, we are broadening that and looking at a dozen different Government of Canada departments. We are looking at what the policies are when it comes to sexual harassment. Some departments have them and some do not. They should all have them. I want to applaud the committee for taking a leadership role in doing that. A serious look at harassment would benefit not only government departments and employees of the Government of Canada but we would be showing effective leadership for the provinces and many other people across Canada. That is the kind of thing that I would like to see the committee do. I want to applaud it for dealing with that issue. It took a lot of pushing to get it there but it is there. We are going to work together this fall on that study.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974091\" data-originallang=\"en\">The reluctance by the government to deal with the changes needed in the RCMP is really an affront to people like Jamie Hanlon, Nancy Arias and Catherine Galliford. These are dedicated people who dreamed of being part of the RCMP but found their dream to be a nightmare once confronted by a system that allowed, and even encouraged at times, harassment according to some of the comments that have come forward.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974092\" data-originallang=\"en\">These issues must be resolved. Abuse, sexual intimidation or workplace bullying should never be acceptable. These issues should never flourish in any agency or organization in Canada, least of all the RCMP.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974093\" data-originallang=\"en\">To put it into perspective, I would like to read from an email my office received from one of the women who faced sexual harassment within the force. She said, in reference to Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2974094\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Bill C-42 is an important step towards the future. However, it in no way addresses the serious issues of violence in the workplace at the RCMP that has been around for more than 20 years, and it is for this very reason that it is extremely important and imperative that the victims of these crimes be heard and that accountability prevails. Only then can we all move collectively into the future. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2974095\" data-originallang=\"en\">That is a very important statement from someone who has been part of this, who has experienced that kind of harassment, who wants to see the RCMP improve and go forward. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974096\" data-originallang=\"en\">Whatever happens, there will very much be watched by many of the police services throughout our great country, no doubt, because there is an awful lot that goes on that is not reported for a whole lot of reasons.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974097\" data-originallang=\"en\"> No one wants to lose their job. They know that it could clearly impede their opportunity for advancement, but these are very serious issues. I hope that at the Standing Committee on the Status of Women we will be able to give these women an opportunity to speak, and men are part of this as well, but an opportunity to be heard because they are in it for the right reasons. They want to see changes and improvements happen. I agree and I am truly hopeful that the government will get serious about tackling this issue when Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> arrives at committee.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974098\" data-originallang=\"en\">Further to this, in May of this year, RCMP Commissioner Paulson wrote an open letter outlining his current limitations in weeding out the so-called bad apples in the force. Never in the 13 years I have been here have I ever seen a department head, a deputy minister or a commissioner write an open letter in the newspaper appealing for help to make change in his organization. It took a tremendous amount of courage on his part to do that. The <a data-HoCid=\"147112\" href=\"/politicians/vic-toews/\" title=\"Vic Toews\">Minister of Public Safety</a> took that very seriously, went to work and created Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974099\" data-originallang=\"en\">This letter added to his testimony before the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. He said his officers did not have the confidence in the ability of the force to resolve these matters. I did not say that. Commissioner Paulson, head of the RCMP, said that.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974100\" data-originallang=\"en\">When we go back to how the Liberals dealt with the issue in the military, it would set up a separate group of people outside of the RCMP who would deal with all of those issues and come forward with some recommendations. Over and above the work we are doing on Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>, there should be a separate team of people, experts in the field, that would really make those differences.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974101\" data-originallang=\"en\">In essence, an exasperated commissioner was begging for help. Only then did the government step in. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974102\" data-originallang=\"en\">The minister would say that he is addressing the matter at hand, but I fail to see how reworking the force's bureaucratic grievance system and giving increased power to the commissioner would address cases such as the one involving the infamous Sergeant Don Ray. Sergeant Ray admitted that over a three year period of time he had sex with subordinates, drank with them at work and sexually harassed them. He was also found to have used his position to favour female potential employees. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974103\" data-originallang=\"en\">Those are very damning things for a member of the RCMP to do. What happened to him? In return, rather than facing charges, Sergeant Ray was docked 10 days' pay. He intimidated and harassed women in the service, and all of that went on over a period of years. Women would get fired and dismissed and all kinds of things, but what happened to Sergeant Ray? He got a 10-day suspension and was transferred to another detachment. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974104\" data-originallang=\"en\">I have to wonder where that other detachment is. If a woman in Edmonton or Manitoba has difficulty getting home one night, will Sergeant Ray, on a dark night, be the one to help her fix her car, or whatever has happened, when she is stranded? I would not feel safe having him out there. It is absolutely unbelievable that he would be allowed to be out there with a 10-day suspension.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974105\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, I think we can agree that this is not an administrative failing. This runs far deeper than that.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974106\" data-originallang=\"en\">This is precisely why I think Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> would not be enough to address these cultural matters without real debate, which is what we should be having in the House, open dialogue and several amendments at committee.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974107\" data-originallang=\"en\">I certainly hope the committee will be able to do that, that the committee will not be hamstrung and will be able to hear from all the individuals who are part of a variety of different positions in the RCMP, whether they are part of a lawsuit or whatever it is, that they will be encouraged and allowed to come to committee. In that way the committee will have a full picture of what is going on and can make the amendments necessary and can make a recommendation to put a leadership team together to ensure that the changes needed in the RCMP happen and that this is simply not a bunch of paper and another bill that would have no teeth and no real ability to do anything.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2974076\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, avant de commencer, j'aimerais remercier ma coll\u00e8gue de <a data-HoCid=\"170673\" href=\"/politicians/jinny-sims/\" title=\"Jinny Sims\">Newton\u2014Delta-Nord</a> de ses commentaires. Nous discutons de la participation des d\u00e9put\u00e9s \u00e0 l'adoption du meilleur texte de loi possible. De ce c\u00f4t\u00e9-ci de la Chambre, au S\u00e9nat et ailleurs, nous avons des gens venant d'horizons diff\u00e9rents et qui pourraient \u00eatre tr\u00e8s utiles. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974077\" data-originallang=\"en\">Si l'objectif est d'am\u00e9liorer un texte de loi, tous les d\u00e9put\u00e9s devraient en d\u00e9battre et en discuter ouvertement. C'est ce qui est cens\u00e9 se passer \u00e0 la Chambre. Les minist\u00e9riels semblent d\u00e9j\u00e0 avoir le sentiment du devoir accompli et sont pr\u00eats \u00e0 faire adopter cette mesure l\u00e9gislative. Manifestement, nous avons l'intention de faire notre devoir de d\u00e9put\u00e9, c'est-\u00e0-dire examiner la mesure l\u00e9gislative, la commenter et essayer de l'am\u00e9liorer. Avec le concours des nombreuses personnes intelligentes qui si\u00e8gent \u00e0 la Chambre, tous partis confondus, je suis certaine que nous y parviendrions si la d\u00e9mocratie suivait son cours et si on nous permettait de participer en bonne et due forme au processus l\u00e9gislatif.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974078\" data-originallang=\"en\">En tant que porte-parole lib\u00e9rale en mati\u00e8re de condition f\u00e9minine, je suis particuli\u00e8rement contente de pouvoir intervenir dans le d\u00e9bat sur ce projet de loi. Je travaillais sur ce dossier depuis plus d'un an lorsque j'ai commenc\u00e9 \u00e0 recevoir de nombreux appels d'autres membres de la GRC concernant le harc\u00e8lement sexuel. Je suis ravie de constater que le gouvernement a pris des mesures et a r\u00e9pondu aux appels du commissaire Paulson et d'autres intervenants qui lui demandaient d'am\u00e9liorer les mesures l\u00e9gislatives existantes et de d\u00e9lier les mains du commissaire. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974079\" data-originallang=\"en\">Est-ce suffisant? \u00c0 mon avis, le texte de loi est incomplet dans sa forme actuelle, mais nous allons corriger ses lacunes \u00e0 la Chambre et au comit\u00e9. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974080\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme le savent la plupart des d\u00e9put\u00e9s, de nombreux d\u00e9put\u00e9s ont \u00e9t\u00e9 inform\u00e9s de cas de harc\u00e8lement sexuel et professionnel \u00e0 la GRC et s'impliquent dans ce dossier. Cependant, il est malheureux qu'il ait fallu tant d'incidents pour que le gouvernement d\u00e9cide finalement de r\u00e9former, \u00e0 contrecoeur, la GRC. N\u00e9anmoins, c'est une premi\u00e8re \u00e9tape. Allons-y une \u00e9tape \u00e0 la fois.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974081\" data-originallang=\"en\">D'entr\u00e9e de jeu, je tiens \u00e0 dire tr\u00e8s clairement qu'\u00e0 l'instar de tous mes coll\u00e8gues \u00e0 la Chambre, j'\u00e9prouve le plus profond respect envers la GRC et tous les agents des diverses divisions et villes qui travaillent sans rel\u00e2che pour assurer notre s\u00e9curit\u00e9. Au fil des ans, la GRC est devenue un embl\u00e8me fier et honorable de notre pays. Lorsqu'on demande aux gens ce qu'ils pensent du Canada, une des premi\u00e8res choses qui leur viennent \u00e0 l'esprit, ce sont les gendarmes de la GRC et leur tunique rouge. Nous sommes tr\u00e8s fiers d'eux. J'ai bon espoir que, gr\u00e2ce au travail du commissaire Paulson et d'autres responsables, les changements n\u00e9cessaires seront apport\u00e9s \u00e0 cette organisation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974082\" data-originallang=\"en\">Malgr\u00e9 cet h\u00e9ritage, au cours des derni\u00e8res ann\u00e9es, la GRC a acquis une tr\u00e8s mauvaise r\u00e9putation, surtout parce qu'elle n'a pas r\u00e9ussi \u00e0 composer avec certaines r\u00e9alit\u00e9s culturelles internes, ce qui, malheureusement, lui a valu des critiques tr\u00e8s n\u00e9gatives. Le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> constitue peut-\u00eatre la premi\u00e8re \u00e9tape \u00e0 franchir en vue de r\u00e9gler certains de ces probl\u00e8mes. Je dis \u00ab certains de ces probl\u00e8mes \u00bb, car je ne suis pas convaincue que cette mesure l\u00e9gislative permettra de r\u00e9gler tous les probl\u00e8mes qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 relev\u00e9s. Je crains qu'elle n'atteigne pas son objectif si le gouvernement n'est pas dispos\u00e9 \u00e0 \u00e9couter les personnes touch\u00e9es. Le probl\u00e8me ne se situe pas simplement au niveau des processus; il est beaucoup plus profond que cela.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974083\" data-originallang=\"en\">Derni\u00e8rement, je me suis entretenue avec le s\u00e9nateur Rom\u00e9o Dallaire, que nous connaissons tous. Nous sommes au courant des exploits militaires du s\u00e9nateur Dallaire qui rel\u00e8vent carr\u00e9ment de l'h\u00e9ro\u00efsme. Au cours de cette conversation, le s\u00e9nateur a fait des rapprochements entre la situation des forces arm\u00e9es au d\u00e9but des ann\u00e9es 1990 et celle de la GRC de nos jours. Nous nous souvenons tous de certains des d\u00e9fis auxquels le MDN a d\u00fb faire face au d\u00e9but des ann\u00e9es 1990. La plupart de ces probl\u00e8mes \u00e9taient attribuables \u00e0 une forme de culture qui n'avait pas chang\u00e9 ou qui \u00e9tait d\u00e9pass\u00e9e. Les forces arm\u00e9es faisaient les manchettes pour des raisons tr\u00e8s n\u00e9gatives et les commentaires d\u00e9vastateurs fusaient de toutes parts. Par cons\u00e9quent, la confiance du public \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard des forces arm\u00e9es a de nouveau \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9branl\u00e9e, et on a exig\u00e9 des changements v\u00e9ritables. \u00c0 l'\u00e9poque, il fallait moderniser la culture militaire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974084\" data-originallang=\"en\">Une bonne partie du contenu du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> dont nous discutons aujourd'hui vise \u00e0 faire avancer les choses. Cette mesure l\u00e9gislative a pour objet de moderniser l'organisation et de changer des choses qui n'\u00e9taient pas acceptables il y a 20 ans, mais qui, pour une raison ou une autre, ont perdur\u00e9. Dans bien des cas, les femmes sont victimes de harc\u00e8lement sexuel dans diff\u00e9rents contextes. Il semble que, dans certains milieux, comme celui des forces arm\u00e9es ou de la police, les risques de faire l'objet d'intimidation ou de harc\u00e8lement sexuel soient plus nombreux.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974085\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le gouvernement lib\u00e9ral avait un probl\u00e8me \u00e0 r\u00e9gler lorsqu'il a t\u00e2ch\u00e9 de rem\u00e9dier aux r\u00e9sultats d'une publicit\u00e9 tr\u00e8s n\u00e9gative au sein des forces arm\u00e9es et \u00e0 leur sujet. Le gouvernement lib\u00e9ral de l'\u00e9poque a apport\u00e9 les changements voulus. Il a modernis\u00e9 le minist\u00e8re de la D\u00e9fense nationale et les forces arm\u00e9es. Il a mis en place une \u00e9quipe de la haute direction qui a chang\u00e9 en profondeur les Forces arm\u00e9es canadiennes. Cette \u00e9quipe avait \u00e9t\u00e9 express\u00e9ment charg\u00e9e de modifier la culture militaire \u00e0 diff\u00e9rents \u00e9gards: la fa\u00e7on de se traiter mutuellement et de traiter les personnes de diff\u00e9rents niveaux de m\u00eame que la n\u00e9cessit\u00e9 de se respecter les uns les autres et d'exclure le harc\u00e8lement de la culture de l'organisme. C'\u00e9tait faire preuve d'un v\u00e9ritable leadership, et c'est ce genre de leadership qui est de nouveau n\u00e9cessaire pour s'attaquer au harc\u00e8lement sexuel et \u00e0 l'intimidation en milieu de travail qui, \u00e0 ce qu'on entend, ont cours au sein de la GRC.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974086\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le commissaire lui-m\u00eame le demande. Le commissaire Paulson a t\u00e9moign\u00e9 devant le Comit\u00e9 permanent de la condition f\u00e9minine. Il a bel et bien dit qu'il avait besoin que des modifications soient apport\u00e9es \u00e0 la loi pour lui d\u00e9lier les mains et lui permettre de prendre des mesures efficaces \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard de ceux dont il sait qu'ils ne respectent pas les r\u00e8gles comme ils le devraient. Je veux bien \u00eatre optimiste, mais je constate davantage une r\u00e9action prudente reposant sur une strat\u00e9gie de relations publiques qu'un leadership de ce genre.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974087\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est en partie pourquoi il est si important qu'on d\u00e9batte de la question \u00e0 la Chambre et que ce projet de loi sont renvoy\u00e9 au comit\u00e9, o\u00f9 on pourra vraiment en d\u00e9battre et le renforcer afin qu'il ne devienne pas simplement une op\u00e9ration de relations publiques, et qu'il serve v\u00e9ritablement \u00e0 r\u00e9soudre les probl\u00e8mes qui, nous le savons tous, existent au sein de la GRC. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974088\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les 138 personnes qui ont port\u00e9 plainte pour harc\u00e8lement \u00e0 l'endroit de la GRC ont pos\u00e9 un geste grave, qui risque fort de mettre fin \u00e0 leur carri\u00e8re, mais tel ne devrait pas \u00eatre le cas. Ces personnes savent qu'elles ont mis fin \u00e0 leur carri\u00e8re, mais elles croyaient suffisamment \u00e0 la GRC pour vouloir qu'un changement s'y produise malgr\u00e9 tout. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974089\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le commissaire de la GRC n'aurait pas non plus d\u00fb \u00eatre oblig\u00e9 de faire une sortie publique pour forcer le gouvernement \u00e0 r\u00e9agir aux probl\u00e8mes existant au sein de la GRC. C'\u00e9tait irresponsable de la part du gouvernement. Manifestement, le commissaire avait le sentiment que la seule fa\u00e7on d'aborder le sujet en public \u00e9tait devant le Comit\u00e9 permanent de la condition f\u00e9minine. Il jugeait que c'\u00e9tait n\u00e9cessaire. Une telle d\u00e9claration \u00e9tait pour lui le seul moyen de provoquer des changements. Encore aujourd'hui, selon le <em>Hill Times</em>, les minist\u00e9riels qui font partie du Comit\u00e9 permanent de la condition f\u00e9minine r\u00e9pugnent \u00e0 aborder la question de fa\u00e7on ouverte et transparente. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974090\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je f\u00e9licite le comit\u00e9 permanent, dont je suis la vice-pr\u00e9sidente, de s'\u00eatre attaqu\u00e9 au probl\u00e8me du harc\u00e8lement et du harc\u00e8lement sexuel. Plut\u00f4t que de se concentrer uniquement sur la GRC, comme je l'aurais pr\u00e9f\u00e9r\u00e9, le comit\u00e9 \u00e9largit son champ d'action et se penche sur une douzaine de minist\u00e8res f\u00e9d\u00e9raux. Nous examinons les politiques en mati\u00e8re de harc\u00e8lement sexuel. Certains minist\u00e8res en ont une, d'autres pas. Tous devraient en avoir une. Je tiens \u00e0 f\u00e9liciter le comit\u00e9 pour le leadership dont il fait preuve \u00e0 ce sujet. Un examen en r\u00e8gle de la question du harc\u00e8lement sera b\u00e9n\u00e9fique pour les minist\u00e8res et les employ\u00e9s f\u00e9d\u00e9raux, et servira d'exemple aux provinces et aux Canadiens. Voil\u00e0 ce que j'aimerais que le comit\u00e9 fasse. Je f\u00e9licite le comit\u00e9 de son initiative. Il a fallu jouer des coudes pour y parvenir, mais c'est fait. Nous allons nous pencher ensemble sur ce dossier cet automne. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974091\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est tout bonnement insultant, pour des gens comme Jamie Hanlon, Nancy Arias et Catherine Galliford, que le gouvernement h\u00e9site \u00e0 se pencher sur la question des changements qui doivent \u00eatre faits \u00e0 la GRC. Ces personnes r\u00eavaient de faire partie de cette institution, mais leur r\u00eave s'est transform\u00e9 en cauchemar lorsqu'elles se sont trouv\u00e9es face \u00e0 un syst\u00e8me qui, selon certains t\u00e9moignages, tol\u00e9rait, voire favorisait parfois, le harc\u00e8lement</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974092\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ces questions doivent \u00eatre r\u00e9gl\u00e9es. Les mauvais traitements, l'intimidation sexuelle et le harc\u00e8lement professionnel ne devraient jamais \u00eatre tol\u00e9r\u00e9s. Il ne devrait y avoir de tels probl\u00e8mes dans aucun organisme canadien, surtout pas \u00e0 la GRC. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974093\" data-originallang=\"en\">Pour vous en donner une id\u00e9e, je tiens \u00e0 lire un passage d'un courriel que j'ai re\u00e7u et qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9crit par une victime de harc\u00e8lement sexuel \u00e0 la GRC. Voici ce que cette femme a dit au sujet du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2974094\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Le projet de loi C-42 est une mesure importante qui fait progresser les choses. Par contre, il ne r\u00e8gle pas du tout la grave question de la violence au travail qui existe depuis plus de 20 ans \u00e0 la GRC. C'est pour cette raison qu'il est imp\u00e9ratif qu'on \u00e9coute ce que les victimes ont \u00e0 dire et que les gens aient \u00e0 rendre compte de leurs actes. C'est le seul moyen de faire collectivement progresser les choses. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"2974095\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il s'agit l\u00e0 d'une d\u00e9claration tr\u00e8s importante de la part d'une personne qui sait ce qui se passe, qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 victime de ce genre de harc\u00e8lement et qui veut que la situation s'am\u00e9liore \u00e0 la GRC.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974096\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quoi qu'il en soit, bien des services policiers suivront la situation de pr\u00e8s, car beaucoup de choses se produisent dans notre merveilleux pays qui, pour toutes sortes de raisons, ne sont pas d\u00e9clar\u00e9es. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974097\" data-originallang=\"en\">Personne ne veut perdre son emploi. Personne ne veut compromettre ses chances d'avancement, ce qui est un risque encore trop r\u00e9el. Or, il s'agit de probl\u00e8mes extr\u00eamement s\u00e9rieux. J'esp\u00e8re que le Comit\u00e9 permanent de la condition f\u00e9minine donnera l'occasion \u00e0 ces femmes de se faire entendre. Les hommes aussi ont leur mot \u00e0 dire, mais il faut \u00e9couter ces femmes, parce qu'elles sont l\u00e0 pour les bonnes raisons. Elles veulent que les choses changent et s'am\u00e9liorent. Je suis d'accord, et j'esp\u00e8re sinc\u00e8rement que le gouvernement s'attaquera s\u00e9rieusement \u00e0 ce probl\u00e8me lorsque le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> sera renvoy\u00e9 au comit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974098\" data-originallang=\"en\">Dans le m\u00eame ordre d'id\u00e9es, en mai dernier, le commissaire Paulson, de la GRC, a fait \u00e9tat, dans une lettre ouverte, des contraintes qui l'emp\u00eachent actuellement de se d\u00e9barrasser de ce qu'on pourrait appeler les \u00ab pommes pourries \u00bb de son organisme. Jamais, en 13 ans, je n'avais encore vu le dirigeant d'un minist\u00e8re, un sous-ministre ou un commissaire envoyer une lettre ouverte \u00e0 un journal pour demander qu'on l'aide \u00e0 faire le m\u00e9nage dans son organisation. Il lui a fallu une dose incroyable de courage. Le <a data-HoCid=\"147112\" href=\"/politicians/vic-toews/\" title=\"Vic Toews\">ministre de la S\u00e9curit\u00e9 publique</a> a pris la chose tr\u00e8s au s\u00e9rieux, s'est attel\u00e9 \u00e0 la t\u00e2che et a pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974099\" data-originallang=\"en\">La lettre ouverte du commissaire allait dans le m\u00eame sens que le t\u00e9moignage qu'il a livr\u00e9 devant le Comit\u00e9 permanent de la condition f\u00e9minine. Il avait alors d\u00e9clar\u00e9 que, selon ses agents, la GRC \u00e9tait incapable de r\u00e9gler ce probl\u00e8me. Ce n'est pas moi qui l'ai dit. C'est le commissaire Paulson, le chef de la GRC.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974100\" data-originallang=\"en\">Si on se rappelle la mani\u00e8re dont les lib\u00e9raux ont r\u00e9agi quand ce probl\u00e8me est survenu dans l'arm\u00e9e, ils cr\u00e9eraient aujourd'hui un groupe distinct, form\u00e9 de gens ne faisant pas partie de la GRC, et le chargeraient de s'attaquer \u00e0 tous ces probl\u00e8mes et de recommander des solutions. En plus du travail que nous faisons dans le cadre du projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a>, il devrait y avoir une \u00e9quipe distincte, form\u00e9e de sp\u00e9cialistes du domaine, qui produirait des r\u00e9sultats tangibles. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974101\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quand on y pense, il aura fallu que le commissaire soit exasp\u00e9r\u00e9 au point d'appeler \u00e0 l'aide pour que le gouvernement intervienne.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974102\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le ministre dira certainement qu'il prend les mesures qui s'imposent, mais je ne vois pas en quoi le fait de r\u00e9organiser le syst\u00e8me de traitement des griefs et de donner plus de pouvoirs au commissaire changera quoi que ce soit aux nombreux cas comme celui du tristement c\u00e9l\u00e8bre sergent Don Ray. Ce dernier a avou\u00e9 que, pendant trois ans, il a eu des relations sexuelles avec des subalternes, a consomm\u00e9 de l'alcool en leur compagnie sur les lieux de travail et les a harcel\u00e9es sexuellement. Il a \u00e9galement abus\u00e9 de son autorit\u00e9 en favorisant l'embauche de femmes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974103\" data-originallang=\"en\">Ce sont des gestes tr\u00e8s compromettants de la part d'un agent de la GRC. Que lui est-il arriv\u00e9? Au lieu de faire face \u00e0 des accusations, le sergent Ray a \u00e9t\u00e9 priv\u00e9 de 10 jours de salaire. Il a intimid\u00e9 et harcel\u00e9 des femmes en service et tout cela a dur\u00e9 des ann\u00e9es. Des femmes auraient \u00e9t\u00e9 renvoy\u00e9es, licenci\u00e9es et ainsi de suite, mais qu'est-il arriv\u00e9 au sergent Ray? Il a \u00e9t\u00e9 suspendu pendant dix jours et a \u00e9t\u00e9 mut\u00e9 \u00e0 un autre d\u00e9tachement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974104\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je me demande o\u00f9 se trouve cet autre d\u00e9tachement. Si, \u00e0 Edmonton ou au Manitoba, une femme a de la difficult\u00e9 \u00e0 rentrer chez elle, est-ce que le sergent Ray, par une nuit obscure, l'aidera \u00e0 r\u00e9parer sa voiture par exemple alors qu'elle est coinc\u00e9e? Je ne me sentirais pas en s\u00e9curit\u00e9 de le savoir dans les environs. Il est tout \u00e0 fait incroyable qu'il s'en soit tir\u00e9 avec une suspension de 10 jours.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974105\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quoi qu'il en soit, je pense que nous pouvons convenir qu'il ne s'agit pas d'une erreur administrative. Le probl\u00e8me est beaucoup plus grave.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974106\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est justement pour cela que je pense que le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5683261\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-42/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts\">C-42</a> ne suffirait pas \u00e0 aborder les probl\u00e8mes de culture sans un v\u00e9ritable d\u00e9bat, qui devrait avoir lieu \u00e0 la Chambre, sans un dialogue ouvert et sans plusieurs amendements propos\u00e9s par le comit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2974107\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'esp\u00e8re que le comit\u00e9 sera en mesure d'amender le projet de loi, que ses travaux ne seront pas paralys\u00e9s et qu'il pourra entendre des gens qui occupent divers postes \u00e0 la GRC, qu'ils fassent l'objet de poursuites ou d'autres mesures. J'esp\u00e8re que l'on permettra \u00e0 ces personnes de t\u00e9moigner devant le comit\u00e9 et qu'on les encouragera \u00e0 le faire. Ainsi, le comit\u00e9 aura un portrait global de la situation. Il pourra apporter les amendements n\u00e9cessaires et recommander la formation d'une \u00e9quipe qui veillera \u00e0 ce que les changements requis soient apport\u00e9s au sein de la GRC. Nous ne voulons pas d'un autre projet de loi qui n'a pas de mordant et qui n'a aucune capacit\u00e9 r\u00e9elle de faire quoi que ce soit. </p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2012/9/18/judy-sgro-3/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/judy-sgro/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/3671/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "7676273",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": "Initiatives minist\u00e9rielles"
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police Accountability Act",
        "fr": "Loi visant \u00e0 accro\u00eetre la responsabilit\u00e9 de la Gendarmerie royale du Canada"
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2012/9/18/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2012%2F9%2F18%2F"
    }
}