Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2011-12-01 13:45:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"2619743\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I agree with the comment by the member for <a data-HoCid=\"170525\" href=\"/politicians/harold-albrecht/\" title=\"Harold Albrecht\">Kitchener\u2014Conestoga</a>. I think his point is this is a bill that he would like to ultimately see passed, even if there is a need to make some changes, and the government is open to some changes at committee. That is the reason why we want to listen to what people might have to say on this. Those are the types of encouraging words that members of the opposition like to hear for the simple reason that if the government is true to those sentiments, it means we have the opportunity to improve the legislation if it is deemed necessary. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619744\" data-originallang=\"en\">We have some concerns with the legislation, but we are very supportive of the principle of it. We talk about individual cases. One member talked about a snow blower that disappeared out of a garage. Another member made reference to golf clubs. True to form, I have had two bicycles disappear from my garage over the years. There are many different crimes and some are less severe. Having a bicycle disappear is disappointing and disheartening. We feel violated in the sense that someone has walked into our garage in broad daylight and has taken our property. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619745\" data-originallang=\"en\">An individual who works for me, Henry Celones, is a wonderful man. He just turned 70 and he does a lot of walking. One day early in the morning he was walking around the area of Sheppard Street and Jefferson Avenue when he was approached by two larger individuals. Now Henry is a small guy. He is no bigger than I am. These two people told him to hand over money or cigarettes and he felt quite intimidated by this. One of them started to reach toward him. It is amazing how Henry was able to respond and defend himself. Both men in their late twenties or early thirties were tall, but they were literally taken to the ground by Henry. We shared the story with a few others who said, \u201cGood for Henry, he did the right thing by defending himself\u201d. There are those different types of extremes where some crimes are petty, but other things could be life threatening. People respond in different ways.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619746\" data-originallang=\"en\">We have talked about a store that is robbed, then a period of time elapses and the individual comes back. This is a person's livelihood. Should people not have the right to protect their property? The vast majority of Canadians would say absolutely, that people have the right to protect their property and livelihood. I do not think anyone would question that right.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619747\" data-originallang=\"en\">There are issues related to what is reasonable and what is not reasonable. We have to look at situations on their individual merits and then make that determination. That is why, in good part, we have our court process.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619748\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Bill <a data-HoCid=\"5254650\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-26/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code (citizen's arrest and the defences of property and persons)\">C-26</a> in essence complements our law enforcement agencies. It is not there to say that our police forces, whether it is RCMP or local policing units, are not doing their job. They are doing a wonderful job, in terms of protecting and making people feel safe and secure in our communities, given the resources they have. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619749\" data-originallang=\"en\">When I was a bit younger, a number of years ago, and in university, one summer I was employed to canvass the community. I had to go door to door and ask about issues like community safety. I can remember that in older communities, people would say that they remembered when Ralph, an officer of the law, used to walk up and down the streets. He knew the individuals who were causing the problems and he was able to provide a sense of security.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619750\" data-originallang=\"en\">Then we evolved away from the community policing that Canadians respected for many years. We started to get more individual police officers in police cars because of suburban growth and things of that nature. We have seen more of an investment in the number of officers, and in many communities today, we see that more policing is actually being supported through having more police officers and, ultimately, more community police officers </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619751\" data-originallang=\"en\"> When I look at the future, I think we need to invest more into community policing, because I think that is the best way for us to enable citizens to be more involved in our communities. I would suggest that citizens do want to get involved. There are many examples of citizens' wanting to be involved. The bill today is just one of those examples.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619752\" data-originallang=\"en\">I could talk about concerns raised in the area I represent. Out of the blue, out of goodness, a number of individuals said they wanted to form a group to walk up and down some of our streets in some of our communities. These are citizen action groups. There is nothing wrong with that. Individuals who take that kind of action should be applauded. They wear bright vests and are well identified. They are not vigilantes looking to cause issues or problems. They are just more concerned about our communities. They are watch groups. They all play a role. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619753\" data-originallang=\"en\">What is really encouraging is to see our law enforcement officers supporting those groups. Part of that support is through providing education on what we can or cannot do. When we make a citizen's arrest, we do have to be careful. We have to size up the situation. Is it situation we really want to get directly involved in? Is there a better way? Maybe there might be a community police office nearby; maybe we would recognize a particular individual in a store, identify that person to the local police office and resolve it in that way, as opposed to making a citizen's arrest.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619754\" data-originallang=\"en\">I can tell members the story of what happened to a lady in an office right beside my constituency office. She was robbed and stabbed in the neck by a young offender. She recognized the person who committed the crime. Instead of running out of the store and trying to administer a citizen's arrest, she stayed in the store and contacted the police. After a while the police got to the store; it took them a little while, but they got there. Because she was able to describe the person and even point out the person's house to the police, proper actions were taken. The youth was taken into custody. Hopefully we will see some justice with regard to that particular issue.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619755\" data-originallang=\"en\">I would suggest that this person made a good decision in this instance. It was an appropriate thing to do. That is what people have to look at when they are faced with the necessity of taking action because their property is threatened. In this case it was not only property but, to a certain degree, her life as well. She was stabbed; she had to go to the hospital and have stitches. She had taken a personal assessment of the situation and had made the determination that the best way to deal with it was to contact the police.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619756\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, sometimes that is not the way to go. Sometimes it is necessary for someone to\u2014</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"2619743\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je suis d'accord avec le d\u00e9put\u00e9 de <a data-HoCid=\"170525\" href=\"/politicians/harold-albrecht/\" title=\"Harold Albrecht\">Kitchener\u2014Conestoga</a>. Je crois que sa position est qu'il aimerait que le projet de loi soit adopt\u00e9, m\u00eame s'il faut y apporter quelques amendements, et que le gouvernement serait ouvert \u00e0 des amendements \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape de l'\u00e9tude en comit\u00e9. C'est pourquoi nous voulons \u00e9couter ce que les gens peuvent avoir \u00e0 dire sur le sujet. Ce sont des paroles encourageantes comme celles-l\u00e0 que les d\u00e9put\u00e9s de l'opposition aiment entendre pour la simple raison que, si le gouvernement parle s\u00e9rieusement, cela signifie que des am\u00e9liorations n\u00e9cessaires pourront \u00eatre apport\u00e9es au projet de loi.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619744\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le projet de loi suscite quelques pr\u00e9occupations pour nous, mais nous en appuyons le principe. Nous parlons de cas particuliers. Un d\u00e9put\u00e9 a parl\u00e9 d'une souffleuse \u00e0 neige disparue d'un garage. Un autre a parl\u00e9 de b\u00e2tons de golf. Dans mon cas, deux bicyclettes sont disparues de mon garage. Il y a de nombreux types d'actes criminels et certains sont moins graves. La disparition d'une bicyclette est d\u00e9cevante et d\u00e9courageante. On se sent victimis\u00e9 parce qu'un individu est entr\u00e9 dans notre garage en plein jour et y a pris notre bien.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619745\" data-originallang=\"en\">Henry Celones travaille pour moi et c'est un homme remarquable. Il vient d'avoir 70 ans et il marche beaucoup. Un bon matin, il marchait dans le coin de la rue Sheppard et de l'avenue Jefferson lorsque deux individus bien plus costauds que lui l'ont abord\u00e9. Henry est un homme fr\u00eale. Il n'est pas plus gros que moi. Les deux individus lui ont dit de leur remettre son argent ou des cigarettes et il s'est senti tr\u00e8s intimid\u00e9. Un des deux individus s'est approch\u00e9 de lui. La mani\u00e8re dont Henry a r\u00e9agi et s'est d\u00e9fendu est \u00e9tonnante. Les deux individus, \u00e0 la fin de la vingtaine ou au d\u00e9but de la trentaine, \u00e9taient grands, mais Henry les a litt\u00e9ralement terrass\u00e9s. Nous avons racont\u00e9 l'incident \u00e0 quelques personnes qui ont f\u00e9licit\u00e9 Henry de s'\u00eatre d\u00e9fendu. Il y a des crimes mineurs, mais d'autres peuvent menacer la vie. Diff\u00e9rentes personnes r\u00e9agissent diff\u00e9remment.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619746\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous avons parl\u00e9 d'un vol dans un magasin o\u00f9 le voleur est revenu apr\u00e8s un certain temps. Le magasin est le moyen de subsistance d'une personne. Les gens ne devraient-ils pas avoir le droit de prot\u00e9ger leur propri\u00e9t\u00e9? La grande majorit\u00e9 des Canadiens diraient oui, tout \u00e0 fait, les gens ont le droit de prot\u00e9ger leurs biens et leur moyen de subsistance. Je ne pense pas que quiconque contesterait ce droit.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619747\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Il faut s\u2019interroger sur ce qui est raisonnable et sur ce qui ne l\u2019est pas. Nous devons examiner chaque situation s\u00e9par\u00e9ment et prendre ensuite une d\u00e9cision. C\u2019est la raison pour laquelle, dans une large mesure, nous avons un processus judiciaire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619748\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"5254650\" href=\"/bills/41-1/C-26/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Criminal Code (citizen's arrest and the defences of property and persons)\">C-26</a> est essentiellement un compl\u00e9ment au travail de nos organismes d\u2019ex\u00e9cution de la loi. Il ne signifie pas que nos services de police, que ce soit la GRC ou les services de police locaux, ne font pas leur travail. Compte tenu des ressources dont ils disposent, ils font un excellent travail pour veiller \u00e0 ce que la population se sente prot\u00e9g\u00e9e et en s\u00e9curit\u00e9 dans nos collectivit\u00e9s. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619749\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Quand j\u2019\u00e9tais plus jeune, il y a un certain nombre d\u2019ann\u00e9es, et que je fr\u00e9quentais l\u2019universit\u00e9, j\u2019ai travaill\u00e9 pendant l\u2019\u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e0 un sondage dans la collectivit\u00e9. J\u2019allais de porte \u00e0 porte et je posais des questions sur des aspects comme la s\u00e9curit\u00e9 dans la collectivit\u00e9. Je me souviens que, dans les vieux quartiers, les gens disaient se souvenir de Ralph, un agent de police qui patrouillait dans les rues. Ralph connaissait les fauteurs de trouble, et gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 lui la collectivit\u00e9 se sentait en s\u00e9curit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619750\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Puis, nous avons abandonn\u00e9 les services policiers communautaires que les Canadiens respectaient depuis tant d\u2019ann\u00e9es. Nous avons commenc\u00e9 \u00e0 utiliser plus de voitures de police en raison de la croissance des banlieues, entre autres. Nous avons ensuite investi de plus en plus pour accro\u00eetre le nombre d\u2019agents, et dans de nombreuses collectivit\u00e9s, aujourd\u2019hui, l\u2019ordre est assur\u00e9 par un nombre croissant de policiers et, au bout du compte, par des policiers de service communautaire. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619751\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Quand je pense \u00e0 l\u2019avenir, je crois qu\u2019il nous faut investir encore plus dans les services policiers au niveau communautaire, car il s'agit, selon moi, du meilleur moyen de permettre \u00e0 nos citoyens de s\u2019engager dans leur milieu. Je pense que les citoyens veulent s\u2019engager. Il y a bien des exemples de citoyens qui sont dispos\u00e9s \u00e0 s\u2019engager. Ce projet de loi, aujourd\u2019hui, en est un exemple.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619752\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Je pourrais parler de pr\u00e9occupations qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 soulev\u00e9es dans le secteur que je repr\u00e9sente. Sans crier gare, par conviction, un certain nombre de personnes ont d\u00e9cid\u00e9 de former un groupe pour patrouiller dans certaines rues, dans certains quartiers. Ce sont des groupes d\u2019action citoyenne. Il n\u2019y a rien \u00e0 y redire. Les personnes qui prennent ce genre d\u2019initiative devraient \u00eatre f\u00e9licit\u00e9es. Elles portent des vestes voyantes et elles sont bien identifi\u00e9es. Ce ne sont pas des justiciers qui cherchent la bagarre. Ce sont des personnes qui ont le souci de nos collectivit\u00e9s. Ce sont des groupes de surveillance. Ils ont un r\u00f4le \u00e0 jouer. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619753\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il est encourageant de voir que nos policiers appuient la cr\u00e9ation de ces groupes. Ils apportent notamment leur appui en faisant savoir ce que nous pouvons ou ne pouvons pas faire. Quand des citoyens font une arrestation, ils doivent \u00eatre prudents. Ils doivent bien \u00e9valuer la situation. Nous devons nous demander s\u2019il s\u2019agit bien d\u2019une situation \u00e0 laquelle nous voulons nous m\u00ealer directement, s\u2019il existe un meilleur moyen. Il pourrait y avoir un poste de police communautaire pas loin. On peut reconna\u00eetre un individu dans un magasin et signaler sa pr\u00e9sence \u00e0 la police. On peut s\u2019en sortir ainsi au lieu de l\u2019arr\u00eater soi-m\u00eame.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619754\" data-originallang=\"en\">Voici l\u2019histoire d\u2019une femme qui travaille dans un bureau voisin de mon bureau de circonscription. Elle s\u2019est fait voler et poignarder au cou par un jeune d\u00e9linquant. Elle a reconnu l'individu qui a commis le crime. Au lieu de partir en courant pour le rattraper, elle est rest\u00e9e dans le magasin o\u00f9 elle \u00e9tait et a appel\u00e9 la police. Apr\u00e8s un moment, la police est arriv\u00e9e. Elle a d\u00fb attendre un peu, mais les policiers se sont rendus au magasin. Elle a pu d\u00e9crire son assaillant aux policiers et m\u00eame leur indiquer o\u00f9 se trouvait sa maison, et la police est intervenue. Ce jeune est maintenant en d\u00e9tention. Esp\u00e9rons que justice sera faite dans ce cas particulier.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619755\" data-originallang=\"en\">Selon moi, cette femme a pris la bonne d\u00e9cision. C\u2019\u00e9tait ce qu\u2019il fallait faire. C'est ce que les gens doivent envisager quand ils ont \u00e0 intervenir devant une menace contre leurs biens. Dans ce cas, il ne s\u2019agissait pas seulement de biens, mais aussi de la vie de cette femme qui avait re\u00e7u un coup de couteau. Elle avait d\u00fb aller \u00e0 l\u2019h\u00f4pital et se faire faire des points. Elle a \u00e9valu\u00e9 la situation et d\u00e9cid\u00e9 que la meilleure chose \u00e0 faire \u00e9tait d\u2019appeler la police.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"2619756\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cependant, il arrive aussi que cette attitude ne convienne pas. Il est parfois n\u00e9cessaire de\u2026</p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2011/12/1/kevin-lamoureux-3/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/kevin-lamoureux/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/4032/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "5089068",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2011/12/1/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2011%2F12%2F1%2F"
    }
}