Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2010-04-20 17:05:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP)",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"1883146\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I know that my colleague from <a data-HoCid=\"128218\" href=\"/politicians/david-christopherson/\" title=\"David Christopherson\">Hamilton Centre</a> was just getting warmed up, and he could have gone another 10 minutes or another full spot. I really appreciate the comments he has made.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883147\" data-originallang=\"en\"> As our spokesperson in the NDP caucus and the critic for democratic electoral reform, I know the member has put a lot of thought and care into not only this motion and what it really means and what the consequences are but he has put a lot of thought and care into the file overall.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883148\" data-originallang=\"en\">Within our caucus we have really terrific debates about this and many issues, but on this issue we do see it as a very fundamental principle. We are here in this House as individual members of Parliament. We are here because people voted for us. We are here because we got the most amount of votes of all the candidates in each of our ridings.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883149\" data-originallang=\"en\">However, as soon as we become immersed in this system, we begin to realize very quickly that the system is very far from perfect. In fact, there are huge flaws that actually create an environment in our Parliament that is actually not representative.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883150\" data-originallang=\"en\">Having this debate today on the motion that has been brought forward by the Bloc is actually very important because it does provide us with an opportunity to debate this issue about representation in terms of Quebec, its history and its place in our country, but also in terms of other provinces and territories, and as the member just said, communities of interest.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883151\" data-originallang=\"en\">I am member from British Columbia. I represent an urban riding, Vancouver East. There are probably about 120,000-plus people. I am from one of the provinces that is very under-represented. We know that there is a bill that will at some point soon come before us that deals in some way with this issue of representation by population. However, as the member for <a data-HoCid=\"128218\" href=\"/politicians/david-christopherson/\" title=\"David Christopherson\">Hamilton Centre</a> has pointed out, even that bill will not really address some of the fundamental issues that are before us.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883152\" data-originallang=\"en\">I think this is a time to have a thoughtful discussion and to talk about principles of democracy. One of the things that I am really glad about is that we have organizations like Fair Vote Canada that point out to us that Canada is actually now in a minority in that we still use the first past the post system. There are more than 80 countries that use the fair voting system, or what is often called proportional representation or PR.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883153\" data-originallang=\"en\">Fair Vote Canada says:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"1883154\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Fair voting systems have many variations but the core principle is the same: to get as close as possible to treating every voter equally\u2014or in other words, to create true representative democracy. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"1883155\" data-originallang=\"en\">I think that is a very important principle. It is something that we in our party uphold very strongly. We have been very strong advocates for proportional representation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883156\" data-originallang=\"en\">We also believe that there is a principle of representation by population. As we have heard during the debate today, we also recognize very clearly that in this Parliament, regardless of the political party that we are a part of, at least for three of the parties, we are here looking at the ways we build our nation. If we believe in our federal system, we have to look at the realities of the diversity of this country and not only in terms of geography.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883157\" data-originallang=\"en\">We are probably one of the most unique places in the world faced with that kind of geography where we have 80% of our population living within 100 kilometres of the 49th parallel. We have remote communities, vast areas of this country, that still have the right to representation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883158\" data-originallang=\"en\">We do have this incredible conundrum that on the one hand we uphold the principle of representation by population. We also recognize that there are distinct characteristics of our country, whether it is a small province like Prince Edward Island that is guaranteed, under the Constitution, four seats in this House, or whether it is the specific recognition given to Quebec that has been expressed many times in this House as well as by the court system and certainly by the people of Quebec themselves.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883159\" data-originallang=\"en\">When we put all of these things into the mix, it does produce a very complex situation. However, it is not impossible to move forward in a way that addresses the principles in terms of ensuring that there is increased representation for provinces that are under-represented right now, those being B.C., Alberta and Ontario, while at the same time balancing Quebec's historic place within the federation, which we in our party believe must be respected.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883160\" data-originallang=\"en\">That is why, in approaching this motion today, we did have very thoughtful discussions. Maybe it would have been easy to dash that motion and say that this is just a political game and political optics by a advereignist party, and that it is designed to confuse or entrap. We decided to approach this in a thoughtful way to try and examine the principle that the members of the Bloc are putting forward, and ask ourselves if we support that principle.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883161\" data-originallang=\"en\">Do we believe that ensuring the history and tradition of the reflection regarding the representation from Quebec in the House must be a key principle in however we move forward? We came to the conclusion within our caucus that yes, that is a principle that must be upheld. It is not necessarily mutually exclusive to the other principles that we also believe in, in terms of ensuring that other places and regions in Canada that are under-represented must also be addressed.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883162\" data-originallang=\"en\">It makes for a difficult situation, but I believe that if we approach these things on a basis that is thoughtful and based on strong elements and principles about our country, its diversity, its geography and communities of interest, then we should be able to put our brain power together to configure something that actually represents a balance of those principles.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883163\" data-originallang=\"en\">That is what we bring to the debate on this motion today. We are certainly aware that there is another bill that will be coming before us. The committee that Bill <a data-HoCid=\"4394503\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-12/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Constitution Act, 1867 (Democratic representation)\">C-12</a> gets referred to should have a very broad scope to look at that bill and to examine these principles that I have just been talking about, and that may be articulated in various ways.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883164\" data-originallang=\"en\">The worst thing would be to have a bill that becomes a take-it-or-leave-it bill or an either-or bill. That has happened so many times. It is very interesting to us to know what the political agenda of the Conservative government is because it so often offers these unilateral propositions. It is this or it is nothing. It is yes or no. It is black or white.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883165\" data-originallang=\"en\">When we come to something as complex and as historically weighted in the history of our country, as we move forward to the future, I do not think we can take that approach. In some respects, the motion that is before us today from the Bloc, that we are supporting with the amendment because we think it clarifies that historical position, is the opening round of what that debate will be about. How we approach that will be very important.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883166\" data-originallang=\"en\">We come to this with a sense of good faith. We come to it with a sense of the principles we have outlined about representation by population, about the place of Quebec, about communities of interest, and the notion of reforming our democratic systems so that we actually can get to that place where every voter is equal in the sense of having a system that represents the way they are actually voting. Those things are not impossible if we put our minds to it. We look forward to the ongoing debate, support for the motion as amended, and the bill that will come before us.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883167\" data-originallang=\"en\">Our caucus has a pretty strong notion of what this vision is about and what we want to see within our country within that diversity. We are willing to work very hard to take the steps to achieve it. We hope that other members of this Parliament, regardless of political stripe, are willing to do the same.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"1883146\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je sais que mon coll\u00e8gue d'<a data-HoCid=\"128218\" href=\"/politicians/david-christopherson/\" title=\"David Christopherson\">Hamilton-Centre</a> commen\u00e7ait \u00e0 peine \u00e0 se r\u00e9chauffer et qu'il aurait pu continuer encore longtemps. Je le remercie pour ses commentaires.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883147\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je sais que le d\u00e9put\u00e9, qui est le porte-parole du NPD en mati\u00e8re de r\u00e9forme \u00e9lectorale et d\u00e9mocratique, a non seulement \u00e9tudi\u00e9 de tr\u00e8s pr\u00e8s cette motion, sa signification et ses r\u00e9percussions \u00e9ventuelles, mais qu'il a aussi longuement r\u00e9fl\u00e9chi \u00e0 l'ensemble du dossier.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883148\" data-originallang=\"en\">Au sein de notre caucus, cette question, comme bien d'autres, a donn\u00e9 lieu \u00e0 d'excellents d\u00e9bats. \u00c0 notre avis, un principe fondamental est en cause. Nous avons \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9lus d\u00e9put\u00e9s \u00e0 titre individuel. Nous sommes ici parce que des gens ont vot\u00e9 pour nous. Nous sommes ici parce que nous avons obtenu le plus grand nombre de voix parmi tous les candidats dans chacune de nos circonscriptions.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883149\" data-originallang=\"en\">Or, d\u00e8s que nous sommes plong\u00e9s dans ce syst\u00e8me, nous prenons tr\u00e8s vite conscience qu'il est loin d'\u00eatre parfait. En fait, il y a d'\u00e9normes d\u00e9fauts qui font que notre Parlement n'est pas vraiment repr\u00e9sentatif.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883150\" data-originallang=\"en\">Le d\u00e9bat d'aujourd'hui sur la motion propos\u00e9e par le Bloc est tr\u00e8s important, car il nous donne l'occasion de parler de la repr\u00e9sentation du Qu\u00e9bec, en tenant compte de son histoire et de sa place au sein de notre pays, mais aussi de la repr\u00e9sentation des autres provinces et territoires et, comme le d\u00e9put\u00e9 vient de le dire, des autres communaut\u00e9s d'int\u00e9r\u00eats.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883151\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je viens de Colombie-Britannique. Je repr\u00e9sente une circonscription urbaine, Vancouver-Est, qui compte sans doute plus de 120 000 personnes. Je viens d'une de ces provinces fortement sous-repr\u00e9sent\u00e9es. Nous savons que nous serons bient\u00f4t saisis d'un projet de loi qui porte sur la repr\u00e9sentation selon la population. Cependant, comme le d\u00e9put\u00e9 d'<a data-HoCid=\"128218\" href=\"/politicians/david-christopherson/\" title=\"David Christopherson\">Hamilton-Centre</a> l'a soulign\u00e9, m\u00eame ce projet de loi ne corrigera pas certains des probl\u00e8mes fondamentaux que nous avons.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883152\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je crois qu'il est temps de parler s\u00e9rieusement des principes d\u00e9mocratiques. Une chose qui me rend tr\u00e8s fi\u00e8re, c'est de voir des organisations comme le Mouvement pour la repr\u00e9sentation \u00e9quitable au Canada indiquer que le Canada fait partie de la minorit\u00e9 de pays qui utilisent encore le syst\u00e8me majoritaire uninominal \u00e0 un tour. Plus de 80 pays utilisent un syst\u00e8me \u00e9quitable de repr\u00e9sentation proportionnelle.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883153\" data-originallang=\"en\">Voici ce que dit le Mouvement pour la repr\u00e9sentation \u00e9quitable au Canada:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"1883154\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Les syst\u00e8mes \u00e9lectoraux \u00e9quitables se pr\u00e9sentent sous plusieurs formes mais le principe fondamental demeure le m\u00eame: obtenir des r\u00e9sultats qui d\u00e9montrent que chaque vote a \u00e9t\u00e9 trait\u00e9 avec \u00e9quit\u00e9 \u2014 en d\u2019autres mots, que ces r\u00e9sultats sont le reflet d\u2019une vraie d\u00e9mocratie repr\u00e9sentative. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"1883155\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je pense qu'il s'agit d'un principe tr\u00e8s important. C'est un principe que le NPD soutient tr\u00e8s fermement. Nous sommes de tr\u00e8s ardents d\u00e9fenseurs de la repr\u00e9sentation proportionnelle.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883156\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous croyons aussi qu'il y a un principe de repr\u00e9sentation selon la population. Comme nous l'avons entendu au cours du d\u00e9bat d'aujourd'hui, nous reconnaissons aussi tr\u00e8s clairement qu'au Parlement, peu importe le parti politique que nous repr\u00e9sentons, du moins trois d'entre eux, nous cherchons des moyens de contribuer \u00e0 l'\u00e9dification de notre pays. Si nous croyons en notre syst\u00e8me f\u00e9d\u00e9ral, nous devons \u00e9tudier les r\u00e9alit\u00e9s associ\u00e9es \u00e0 la diversit\u00e9 de notre pays et pas seulement sa r\u00e9alit\u00e9 g\u00e9ographique.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883157\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous sommes probablement l'un des endroits les plus uniques au monde sur le plan g\u00e9ographique, car 80 p. 100 de notre population vit \u00e0 moins de 100 kilom\u00e8tres du 49<sup>e</sup> parall\u00e8le. Il y a cependant des collectivit\u00e9s \u00e9loign\u00e9es, dans de grandes r\u00e9gions du pays, qui ont malgr\u00e9 tout le droit d'\u00eatre repr\u00e9sent\u00e9es.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883158\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous sommes confront\u00e9s \u00e0 un probl\u00e8me \u00e9pineux. D'un c\u00f4t\u00e9, nous soutenons le principe de la repr\u00e9sentation selon la population. De l'autre, nous reconnaissons que notre pays poss\u00e8de des caract\u00e9ristiques distinctes, qu'il s'agisse d'une petite province comme l'\u00cele-du-Prince-\u00c9douard \u00e0 laquelle la Constitution garantit quatre si\u00e8ges \u00e0 la Chambre ou de la reconnaissance particuli\u00e8re dont jouit le Qu\u00e9bec, qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 exprim\u00e9e en de nombreuses occasions \u00e0 la Chambre, par les tribunaux et par la population du Qu\u00e9bec elle-m\u00eame, bien s\u00fbr. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883159\" data-originallang=\"en\">Quand on met tous ces \u00e9l\u00e9ments dans la balance, on se retrouve avec une situation on ne peut plus complexe. Il n'est cependant pas impossible de trouver une solution qui r\u00e9concilie tous ces principes et permette d'accro\u00eetre la repr\u00e9sentation des provinces actuellement sous-repr\u00e9sent\u00e9es que sont la Colombie-Britannique, l'Alberta et l'Ontario, tout en maintenant l'\u00e9quilibre historique du Qu\u00e9bec au sein de la f\u00e9d\u00e9ration, ce en quoi les d\u00e9put\u00e9s de notre parti croient fermement.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883160\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est pourquoi les discussions entourant la motion dont la Chambre est aujourd'hui saisie nous ont beaucoup fait r\u00e9fl\u00e9chir. Peut-\u00eatre aurait-il \u00e9t\u00e9 plus facile de la rejeter du revers de la main en pr\u00e9textant qu'il ne s'agit de rien d'autre qu'un jeu, qu'une manoeuvre politique de la part d'un parti souverainiste qui cherche seulement \u00e0 semer la confusion et \u00e0 pi\u00e9ger les autres. Nous avons au contraire pr\u00e9f\u00e9r\u00e9 aborder la question de mani\u00e8re r\u00e9fl\u00e9chie, nous pencher s\u00e9rieusement sur le principe pr\u00e9conis\u00e9 par les d\u00e9put\u00e9s du Bloc et nous demander si nous y adh\u00e9rions ou non.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883161\" data-originallang=\"en\">Croyons-nous que la repr\u00e9sentation historique et traditionnelle du Qu\u00e9bec \u00e0 la Chambre doive \u00eatre respect\u00e9e et doive constituer un principe directeur, peu importe la voie que nous emprunterons? Les membres de notre caucus ont convenu qu'il s'agissait en effet d'un principe qui devait \u00eatre maintenu. Ce qui ne veut pas dire qu'il est incompatible pour autant avec les autres principes auxquels nous souscrivons \u00e9galement et selon lesquels il faut aussi corriger la sous-repr\u00e9sentation de certaines autres r\u00e9gions et localit\u00e9s du Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883162\" data-originallang=\"en\">La situation est difficile, j'en conviens, mais je suis convaincue que, si nous abordons la question de mani\u00e8re r\u00e9fl\u00e9chie et en nous reposant sur les bases et les principes qui d\u00e9finissent notre pays, comme sa diversit\u00e9, sa g\u00e9ographie et ses int\u00e9r\u00eats communs, nous devrions \u00eatre en mesure de faire travailler nos m\u00e9ninges et trouver une solution conciliant tous ces principes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883163\" data-originallang=\"en\">Voil\u00e0 notre apport au d\u00e9bat entourant la motion dont la Chambre est aujourd'hui saisie. Nous n'oublions \u00e9videmment pas qu'un autre projet de loi nous sera bient\u00f4t soumis. Le mandat du comit\u00e9 auquel le projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"4394503\" href=\"/bills/40-3/C-12/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Constitution Act, 1867 (Democratic representation)\">C-12</a> sera renvoy\u00e9 devra \u00eatre le plus large possible, afin que les d\u00e9put\u00e9s qui l'\u00e9tudient puissent se pencher sur les principes dont je viens de parler, et il pourrait \u00eatre d\u00e9fini de diverses mani\u00e8res. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883164\" data-originallang=\"en\">La pire chose qui pourrait nous arriver, ce serait un projet de loi \u00ab \u00e0 prendre ou \u00e0 laisser \u00bb ou nous obligeant \u00e0 choisir entre deux options, ce qui est arriv\u00e9 trop souvent d\u00e9j\u00e0. Il sera int\u00e9ressant de voir en quoi consistera la strat\u00e9gie politique du gouvernement conservateur, car il a le don de nous mettre devant ce type de proposition unilat\u00e9rale. C'est \u00e7a ou rien. C'est oui ou c'est non. C'est noir ou c'est blanc.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883165\" data-originallang=\"en\">Lorsque nous abordons quelque chose d'aussi complexe et d'aussi historiquement charg\u00e9 dans l'histoire de notre pays, je ne pense pas que nous puissions nous tourner vers l'avenir en adoptant une telle attitude. \u00c0 certains \u00e9gards, la motion qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 pr\u00e9sent\u00e9e par le Bloc aujourd'hui, et que nous appuyons avec l'amendement propos\u00e9 parce que nous croyons qu'elle clarifie une position historique, marque le d\u00e9but du d\u00e9bat. Notre attitude ici sera tr\u00e8s importante. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883166\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous abordons la question en toute bonne foi. Nous l'abordons en ayant \u00e0 l'esprit les principes que nous avons \u00e9nonc\u00e9s au sujet de la repr\u00e9sentation selon la population, au sujet de la place du Qu\u00e9bec, au sujet des communaut\u00e9s d'int\u00e9r\u00eat et dans l'optique de r\u00e9former nos syst\u00e8mes d\u00e9mocratiques de mani\u00e8re \u00e0 ce que tous les \u00e9lecteurs soient \u00e9gaux, en ce sens que le syst\u00e8me traduit bien la mani\u00e8re dont ils votent. Ces choses ne sont pas impossibles si nous recherchons sinc\u00e8rement les moyens de les r\u00e9aliser. Nous tenons \u00e0 participer au d\u00e9bat qui a cours, nous appuyons la motion telle qu'amend\u00e9e et nous attendons avec impatience le projet de loi qui nous sera soumis.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"1883167\" data-originallang=\"en\">Notre caucus a une excellente perception de la vision exprim\u00e9e et de ce que nous voulons voir dans notre pays tr\u00e8s diversifi\u00e9. Nous sommes pr\u00eats \u00e0 travailler tr\u00e8s fort pour prendre les mesures permettant de traduire notre vision dans les faits. Nous esp\u00e9rons que les autres d\u00e9put\u00e9s, peu importe leur all\u00e9geance politique, sont pr\u00eats \u00e0 faire comme nous.</p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2010/4/20/libby-davies-1/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/libby-davies/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/2499/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "3106978",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Business of Supply",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "h3": {
        "en": "Opposition motion\u2014Representation of Quebec in the House of Commons",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2010/4/20/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2010%2F4%2F20%2F"
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}