Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2008-01-31 17:10:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Mr. Bill Siksay (Burnaby\u2014Douglas, NDP)",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"875216\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I am glad to have the opportunity to speak this afternoon in this debate on the report stage amendments to Bill <a data-HoCid=\"3076462\" href=\"/bills/39-2/C-3/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (certificate and special advocate) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act\">C-3, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (certificate and special advocate) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act</a>. I was pleased to second the amendments put forward by my colleague, the member for <a data-HoCid=\"78702\" href=\"/politicians/450/\" title=\"Penny Priddy\">Surrey North</a>, on behalf of the NDP caucus today. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875217\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is a somewhat controversial process to suggest that all the clauses of this bill be deleted, but it is a way for us in this corner of the House to show our very serious concerns with the legislation, to show our fears that this is the wrong process to protect Canadians, and to ensure fundamental justice in Canada. In the traditions of this place, putting forward those kinds of amendments is one way of showing that kind of deep concern.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875218\" data-originallang=\"en\">The security certificate legislation is a feature of our Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, but my fear is that we are now using it essentially to prosecute very serious criminal matters, and in fact some of the most serious criminal matters that could face our society, those being terrorism, espionage and threats against the national security of Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875219\" data-originallang=\"en\">What this is saying is that we are prepared to use this lesser immigration process, which is essentially an expedited deportation process, to ensure that dangerous people are kept off the streets in Canada. It seems to me that this is short-circuiting our criminal justice process, especially when it comes to very serious crimes such as terrorism, espionage and threats against national security.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875220\" data-originallang=\"en\">If there is a time when those crimes should be prosecuted, and prosecuted vigorously, it is when we have information about people who are present in Canada and participating in any of those kinds of activities. We should be ensuring that they are charged, prosecuted, convicted and then punished for those activities, but we should be doing it according to the principles of our justice system. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875221\" data-originallang=\"en\">We should not be trying to short-circuit those very basic principles. I think that is what we are doing by using what I believe is a lesser provision of law in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to indefinitely detain people who have not been charged or convicted of any crimes and to deny them access to the evidence that is presented against them. They do not have the ability to fully test what is being presented and is leading to their continued detention. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875222\" data-originallang=\"en\">Currently, post-September 11, this is being applied to six people in Canada, five of whom are Muslim men. I am very concerned that these men have had very serious allegations and accusations levelled against them, accusations that will follow them for the rest of their lives and make it difficult for them wherever they live, here in Canada or in any other country. Once people are labelled as suspected or accused terrorists, especially in the current world climate, their lives become very difficult.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875223\" data-originallang=\"en\">Given the consequences of those kinds of allegations, we owe it to people to subject them to the highest possible standards of our justice system, not some lesser process. That is why I am fundamentally opposed to this legislation.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875224\" data-originallang=\"en\">I would like to see us repeal the provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act relating to security certificates. If there is a problem with our criminal law such that we are unable to prosecute people accused of these very serious crimes, then we should fix those problems in our Criminal Code to ensure that this kind of prosecution can take place.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875225\" data-originallang=\"en\">I am also concerned that if the security certificate process went through to its logical conclusion, these people could be deported to countries where their lives would be in danger or where they might be subjected to torture. Canada must never deport someone to torture. We should never deport people when we have reason to believe that they will be killed once they return to their countries. We have a responsibility in that matter. Ultimately, the security certificate process allows us to avoid those kinds of responsibilities. We must never deport someone to torture.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875226\" data-originallang=\"en\">I have to reiterate that using the security certificate process as provided in our immigration law is a lesser process that does not meet the important and longstanding traditions and standards of our criminal justice system. The appropriate way to deal with these very serious crimes is under the Criminal Code.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875227\" data-originallang=\"en\">Of the five Muslim men who are currently the subjects of the security certificates, Hassan Almrei is the only detainee now being held at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre. \u201cHolding centre\u201d is a nice way of describing what it actually is. It is a maximum security prison within a maximum security prison.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875228\" data-originallang=\"en\"> It is a maximum security prison located within the walls and the fences of Millhaven maximum security penitentiary, so it is not exactly a picnic of a place to be. I have been there on several occasions. It is a very difficult place. To be detained there indefinitely is I think a very severe penalty for anyone, especially someone who has never been charged or convicted.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875229\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Almrei is the only prisoner there. I believe that raises serious issues of solitary confinement, which we have to struggle with in this place and in our justice system. I do not think it is ever appropriate to hold someone in solitary confinement for a long period of time. Now that Mr. Almrei is the only prisoner there, that is the situation he faces.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875230\" data-originallang=\"en\">The other four men who have been released on very strict conditions, Mohammad Mahjoub, Mahmoud Jaballah, Adil Charkaoui and Mohamed Harkat, are living with very difficult requirements. There are very severe restrictions on their lives and the lives of their families.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875231\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The reality is that those four men have been released from detention because they have family members who have been willing, on behalf of Canadian society, to act as their jailers. I think that is a very difficult proposition to put to any family member: that on behalf of Canadian society they should have to be responsible for one of their loved ones 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to make sure they remain in custody and meet these very rigorous conditions. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875232\" data-originallang=\"en\">The effect on the lives of those families is very severe, and again, when their loved one, their father, brother or spouse, has never been convicted of or charged with a crime in Canada. These are very severe restrictions and we see how difficult it is for these families. We have seen just recently how Mr. Harkat has been arrested for an alleged breach of his release conditions. We are waiting anxiously to hear the outcome of his hearing today.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875233\" data-originallang=\"en\">In a sense, I believe that those conditions have been set so strictly so that they will fail. It is hard to imagine how anyone could live under those conditions. It is a testament to the strength of the relationships in those families that they have been able to hold those families and those relationships together given the conditions that they are required to live in.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875234\" data-originallang=\"en\">I am very convinced that this legislation violates some of the fundamental tenets of our justice system and that it uses a lesser mechanism in immigration law to deal with one of the most serious criminal issues that could face our society, that being terrorism or threats against our security. That is why I strongly will be voting against this. I am glad that the New Democrat caucus in this Parliament will also be voting against it.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"875216\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, je suis heureux de me joindre cet apr\u00e8s-midi au d\u00e9bat sur les amendements propos\u00e9s, \u00e0 l'\u00e9tape du rapport, au projet de loi <a data-HoCid=\"3076462\" href=\"/bills/39-2/C-3/\" title=\"An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (certificate and special advocate) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act\">C-3, Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des r\u00e9fugi\u00e9s (certificat et d\u00e9fenseur) et une autre loi en cons\u00e9quence</a>. Je suis heureux d'appuyer les amendements propos\u00e9s aujourd'hui par mon coll\u00e8gue, le d\u00e9put\u00e9 de <a data-HoCid=\"78702\" href=\"/politicians/450/\" title=\"Penny Priddy\">Surrey-Nord</a>, au nom du caucus du NPD.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875217\" data-originallang=\"en\">Sugg\u00e8rer la suppression de toutes les dispositions du projet de loi est un processus quelque peu controvers\u00e9, mais c'est un moyen pour nous, dans ce coin de la Chambre, d'exprimer les graves r\u00e9serves que nous avons \u00e0 l'\u00e9gard de ce projet de loi, de montrer notre inqui\u00e9tude face \u00e0 ce processus qui est cens\u00e9 prot\u00e9ger les Canadiens et qui devrait garantir la justice fondamentale au Canada. Selon la tradition de cet endroit, la pr\u00e9sentation de ce genre d'amendements est une fa\u00e7on d'exprimer notre grande pr\u00e9occupation. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875218\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les certificats de s\u00e9curit\u00e9 sont un aspect de notre Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des r\u00e9fugi\u00e9s. Je crains qu'\u00e0 l'heure actuelle, nous ne les utilisions essentiellement pour poursuivre des affaires criminelles tr\u00e8s graves, en fait les crimes les plus graves auxquels notre soci\u00e9t\u00e9 puisse \u00eatre confront\u00e9e, notamment le terrorisme, l'espionnage et les menaces \u00e0 la s\u00e9curit\u00e9 nationale. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875219\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il en ressort que nous semblons dispos\u00e9s \u00e0 recourir \u00e0 ce processus de second ordre qui concerne l'immigration, qui est essentiellement un processus acc\u00e9l\u00e9r\u00e9 d'expulsion, pour \u00e9viter que des personnes dangereuses ne circulent librement au Canada. En cela, me semble-t-il, nous court-circuitons notre syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale, surtout lorsqu'il s'agit de crimes tr\u00e8s graves comme le terrorisme, l'espionnage et les menaces \u00e0 la s\u00e9curit\u00e9 nationale.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875220\" data-originallang=\"en\">S'il y a un moment opportun pour intenter des poursuites concernant de tels crimes, et de le faire de fa\u00e7on vigoureuse, c'est lorsque nous avons des renseignements concernant des personnes qui sont pr\u00e9sentes au Canada et participent \u00e0 de telles activit\u00e9s. Nous devons veiller \u00e0 ce que ces personnes soient accus\u00e9es, poursuivies, reconnues coupables et punies, mais nous devons le faire selon les principes de notre syst\u00e8me de justice.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875221\" data-originallang=\"en\">Nous ne devrions pas tenter de court-circuiter ces principes de base. Or, c'est ce que nous faisons, d'apr\u00e8s moi, lorsque nous faisons appel \u00e0 une disposition l\u00e9gale de second ordre contenue dans la Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des r\u00e9fugi\u00e9s pour d\u00e9tenir ind\u00e9finiment des personnes qui n'ont \u00e9t\u00e9 ni accus\u00e9es, ni reconnues coupables de quelque crime que ce soit, sans leur laisser conna\u00eetre les \u00e9l\u00e9ments de preuve retenus contre elles. Ces gens n'ont pas la possibilit\u00e9 d'\u00e9valuer pleinement les \u00e9l\u00e9ments d'information pr\u00e9sent\u00e9s pour justifier leur d\u00e9tention.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875222\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00c0 l'heure actuelle, dans l'\u00e8re post\u00e9rieure aux \u00e9v\u00e9nements du 11 septembre 2001, cette disposition l\u00e9gale est appliqu\u00e9e \u00e0 six personnes au Canada, dont cinq sont des hommes musulmans. Je trouve inqui\u00e9tant que ces hommes aient \u00e9t\u00e9 la cible d'all\u00e9gations et d'accusations extr\u00eamement graves, qui les suivront tout au long de leurs vies, aussi bien ici au Canada qu'\u00e0 l'\u00e9tranger. Toute personne soup\u00e7onn\u00e9e ou accus\u00e9e de terrorisme, surtout dans le climat mondial actuel, risque de mener une vie tr\u00e8s difficile. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875223\" data-originallang=\"en\">Compte tenu des cons\u00e9quences li\u00e9es \u00e0 de telles all\u00e9gations, nous sommes tenus de les examiner \u00e0 la lumi\u00e8re des crit\u00e8res les plus rigoureux de notre syst\u00e8me de justice, et non pas dans le cadre d'un processus de moindre importance. C'est la raison pour laquelle je m'oppose enti\u00e8rement \u00e0 cette mesure l\u00e9gislative.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875224\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je souhaite que nous abrogions les dispositions de la Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des r\u00e9fugi\u00e9s qui ont trait aux certificats de s\u00e9curit\u00e9. Si notre droit criminel ne nous permet pas de poursuivre des personnes accus\u00e9es de crimes d'une telle gravit\u00e9, alors nous devrions r\u00e9soudre les probl\u00e8mes de notre Code criminel qui nous emp\u00eachent de le faire, de mani\u00e8re \u00e0 pouvoir le faire.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875225\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je crains aussi que, advenant la conclusion logique du processus relatif aux certificats de s\u00e9curit\u00e9, ces personnes puissent \u00eatre expuls\u00e9es dans des pays o\u00f9 leur vie serait en danger et o\u00f9 elles pourraient subir de la torture. Le Canada ne doit jamais expulser une personne dans un pays o\u00f9 elle risque la torture. Nous ne devrions jamais expulser une personne lorsque nous avons des raisons de croire qu'elle sera tu\u00e9e \u00e0 son retour dans son pays d'origine. Nous avons une responsabilit\u00e9 \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard. Ultimement, le processus relatif aux certificats de s\u00e9curit\u00e9 nous permet d'\u00e9chapper \u00e0 ce type de responsabilit\u00e9s. Nous ne devons jamais expulser une personne dans un pays o\u00f9 elle risque la torture.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875226\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je le r\u00e9p\u00e8te, le processus relatif aux certificats de s\u00e9curit\u00e9 qui est d\u00e9crit dans la loi sur l'immigration est un processus de second ordre qui n'est pas conforme aux importantes traditions et normes qui caract\u00e9risent depuis longtemps notre syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale. Le Code criminel est l'instrument le mieux adapt\u00e9 pour r\u00e9agir \u00e0 ces crimes tr\u00e8s graves.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875227\" data-originallang=\"en\">Des cinq musulmans qui font actuellement l'objet d'un certificat de s\u00e9curit\u00e9, Hassan Almrei est maintenant le seul \u00e0 \u00eatre d\u00e9tenu au Centre de surveillance de l'immigration, \u00e0 Kingston. Le terme \u00ab centre de surveillance \u00bb est un euph\u00e9misme. Il s'agit d'une prison \u00e0 s\u00e9curit\u00e9 maximale \u00e0 l'int\u00e9rieur d'une prison \u00e0 s\u00e9curit\u00e9 maximale.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875228\" data-originallang=\"en\">C'est une prison \u00e0 s\u00e9curit\u00e9 maximale situ\u00e9e \u00e0 l'int\u00e9rieur des murs et des cl\u00f4tures de la prison \u00e0 s\u00e9curit\u00e9 maximale Millhaven, donc ce n'est pas de la tarte. J'y suis all\u00e9 \u00e0 plusieurs reprises. C'est un endroit tr\u00e8s difficile. Je pense qu'y \u00eatre d\u00e9tenu ind\u00e9finiment constitue une peine tr\u00e8s s\u00e9v\u00e8re pour quiconque et en particulier pour une personne qui n'a pas \u00e9t\u00e9 accus\u00e9e ou condamn\u00e9e.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875229\" data-originallang=\"en\">M. Almrei est le seul prisonnier l\u00e0-bas. Cette situation soul\u00e8ve la s\u00e9rieuse question de l'isolement cellulaire, qui est une source de controverse ici et dans notre syst\u00e8me de justice. Je ne pense pas qu'il soit convenable de garder quelqu'un en isolement pendant une longue p\u00e9riode, peu importe les circonstances. Maintenant que M. Almrei est le seul prisonnier, c'est la situation dans laquelle il se trouve.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875230\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les quatre autres hommes qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 rel\u00e2ch\u00e9s dans des conditions tr\u00e8s strictes, Mohammad Mahjoub, Mahmoud Jaballah, Adil Charkaoui et Mohamed Harkat, doivent se conformer \u00e0 des exigences tr\u00e8s difficiles. Leur vie et celle des autres membres de leur famille sont assujetties \u00e0 des restrictions tr\u00e8s s\u00e9v\u00e8res.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875231\" data-originallang=\"en\">En r\u00e9alit\u00e9, ces quatre hommes ont \u00e9t\u00e9 lib\u00e9r\u00e9s parce que des membres de leur famille ont accept\u00e9, au nom de la soci\u00e9t\u00e9 canadienne, de faire fonction de gardiens de prison. Je pense que c'est beaucoup demander \u00e0 n'importe quel membre d'une famille: que, au nom de la soci\u00e9t\u00e9 canadienne, il se porte garant d'un proche 24 heures sur 24, sept jours sur sept, pour s'assurer qu'il est gard\u00e9 et remplit des conditions tr\u00e8s strictes.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875232\" data-originallang=\"en\">Les r\u00e9percussions sur la vie de ces familles sont tr\u00e8s graves et, encore une fois, alors m\u00eame que leur proche, leur p\u00e8re, fr\u00e8re ou conjoint n'a jamais \u00e9t\u00e9 accus\u00e9 ou reconnu coupable d'un crime au Canada. Ces restrictions sont tr\u00e8s strictes et nous voyons comment cela est difficile pour ces familles. Nous avons vu tout r\u00e9cemment comment M. Harkat a \u00e9t\u00e9 arr\u00eat\u00e9 pour avoir pr\u00e9sum\u00e9ment enfreint les conditions de sa remise en libert\u00e9. Nous sommes impatients de voir ce qui ressortira de son audience d'aujourd'hui.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875233\" data-originallang=\"en\">D'une certaine mani\u00e8re, je crois que les conditions impos\u00e9es sont si strictes qu'elles ne peuvent \u00eatre respect\u00e9es. Il est difficile d'imaginer comment une personne peut vivre en respectant ces conditions. Le fait que ces familles soient rest\u00e9es intactes, compte tenu des conditions dans lesquelles elles doivent vivre, t\u00e9moigne de la solidit\u00e9 de leurs liens.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"875234\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je suis profond\u00e9ment convaincu que ce projet de loi viole certains des principes fondamentaux de notre syst\u00e8me de justice et qu'il a recours \u00e0 un m\u00e9canisme de second ordre du droit de l'immigration pour rem\u00e9dier \u00e0 l'un des plus graves crimes auxquels pourrait \u00eatre confront\u00e9e notre soci\u00e9t\u00e9, \u00e0 savoir le terrorisme ou les menaces \u00e0 notre s\u00e9curit\u00e9. C'est la raison pour laquelle je vais voter contre ce projet de loi. Je suis heureux que le caucus n\u00e9o-d\u00e9mocrate ait aussi l'intention de voter contre ce projet de loi.</p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2008/1/31/bill-siksay-9/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/bill-siksay/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/1264/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "2292621",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Immigration and Refugee Protection Act",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2008/1/31/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2008%2F1%2F31%2F"
    }
}