Speech (House debate)

{
    "time": "2006-06-09 10:05:00",
    "attribution": {
        "en": "Mr. Lloyd St. Amand (Brant, Lib.)",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "content": {
        "en": "<p data-HoCid=\"21549\" data-originallang=\"en\">Mr. Speaker, I have listened to some of the speeches from members opposite and have heard various references to specific cases and the suggestion from members opposite that a general or sweeping conclusion can and frankly should be drawn from an analysis of simply a few cases or a few situations. Drawing sweeping conclusions as a result of only a few situations is always risky and is, with respect, intellectually rather shallow.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21550\" data-originallang=\"en\">Having practised law for 25 years prior to my election to this distinguished House of Commons in June 2004, I represented many individuals who were charged with various criminal offences. I obviously cannot breach solicitor-client privilege by referring to specific names, but I can certainly indicate that I have observed non-custodial sentences work for the benefit of society, for the benefit of the victim, for the benefit of the offender's family and for the offender himself or herself.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21551\" data-originallang=\"en\">I am referring to individuals who were charged with a criminal offence, in some cases a serious criminal offence. They appeared before the presiding judge and, following a plea of guilty or a finding of guilt, the presiding judge then obviously turned his or her mind to the issue of sentence or penalty.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21552\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is important to recall the edict of a most distinguished counsel and later jurist, the late G. Arthur Martin. Mr. Justice Martin served with distinction for many years on the Ontario Court of Appeal and was widely regarded in his time as the pre-eminent authority with respect to criminal law throughout Canada. Mr. Justice Martin and many others have commented that the overriding principle of sentencing is to determine what this particular offender deserves by way of punishment for this particular offence. The reality is that human behaviour does not lend itself to a simple or computer driven analysis and it is too simplistic to conclude that there will automatically be a deterrent effect if the sentencing bar is only set high enough or harsh enough. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21553\" data-originallang=\"en\"> I can think of many cases in which an offender, a family man, received a non-custodial sentence as a result of a finding of guilt against him. The non-custodial sentence allowed him to, for instance, maintain his job and thereby continue to support his family. It allowed him to continue to parent his children. It allowed him to, as a result of maintaining employment, make restitution or compensation to the victim or victims. It allowed him to attend for counselling and other treatment ordered by the sentencing judge.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21554\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Simply put, the non-custodial sentence worked to the benefit of everyone, as these individuals have not returned to the criminal justice system, have truly learned from their mistakes and have rounded the proverbial corner.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21555\" data-originallang=\"en\">I appreciate that it is tempting to view the criminal justice system as a system which should be driven by formulae and by the principle that harsher penalties will automatically reduce the rate of crime. However tempting that may be, it is short-sighted and is not consistent with the experience that we have had in Canada with our current system.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21556\" data-originallang=\"en\">The point has been made by many others, but it must be borne in mind that the crime rate in Canada is on the decline and that there is no compelling evidence to indicate that incarcerating more people truly works as a deterrent. If there were a clear link between increasing incarceration rates and decreasing crime rates, then an argument could logically be made for more persons to be incarcerated. However, the conclusion is otherwise. The rate of crime in Canada is on the decline.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21557\" data-originallang=\"en\">Certainly the former Liberal government recognized that some serious crimes should be dealt with in a certain fashion and, hence, the policy of mandatory minimum penalties. The Criminal Code already contains some 42 mandatory minimum penalties and the majority of these are, quite properly, for offences involving firearms. Ten serious offences committed with a firearm carry mandatory minimum penalties of four years to a maximum of 14 years or life. Weapons trafficking and related offences carry minimum penalties of one year to a maximum of 10 years.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21558\" data-originallang=\"en\">When an accused person appears before a judge, he brings with him, figuratively, to the door of the courtroom, his background, his life experiences, his challenges, his intellectual deficits, if any, his own at times scarred or abusive upbringing, his economic disadvantages, racial prejudice or stereotyping that he may have been exposed to, and various other factors. For instance, any reasonable observer knows that a disproportionately large number of aboriginal Canadians are incarcerated. To simply incarcerate individuals without providing them with counselling and treatment which will alter their behaviours on a long term basis is myopic.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21559\" data-originallang=\"en\">This is not to sound as if I or others are soft on crime, but is simply to reflect a considered view that Mr. Justice Martin and others are correct in concluding that the overriding principle in sentencing is what a particular offender deserves by way of punishment for the particular offence he or she has committed. It is naive to think that building more prisons will reduce the crime rate. It is irresponsible to build more prisons instead of devoting more money to seniors, to aboriginals and to the disabled. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21560\" data-originallang=\"en\"> A crime prevention strategy involves more than imprisonment. The former Liberal government took many steps which were aimed at decreasing criminal activity across Canada. We increased funding for the national crime prevention strategy. Since its launch in 1998, the national crime prevention strategy has helped provide communities with the tools, the knowledge and the support communities need to deal with the root causes of crime at a local level. This strategy has supported more than 5,000 projects nationwide, dealing with serious issues like family violence, sexual abuse, sexual assault or drug abuse. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21561\" data-originallang=\"en\">In my riding of Brant, there have been several successful projects under the NCPS. These projects are aimed at engaging youth in the community. One project, administered by the Sexual Assault Centre of Brant, developed a youth theatre project. This project engaged students in identifying, discussing and raising the awareness of important social issues.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21562\" data-originallang=\"en\">It is obviously important that our streets and our communities be safe. It is vital that our criminal justice system ensure the safety of each member of society. It is critical that our criminal justice system provide long term solutions to the continued reduction or decrease in the rate of crime.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21563\" data-originallang=\"en\">As others have noted, the ultimate rehabilitation of the individual offers the best long term protection for society, since that rehabilitation ends the risk of the continuing criminal career. There is simply no compelling or persuasive evidence that increasing the number of mandatory minimum penalties will reduce the rate of crime in Canada. As was noted by Cheryl Webster and Anthony Doob of the Centre for Criminology at the University of Toronto:</p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"21564\" data-originallang=\"en\"> The literature on the effects of sentence severity on crime levels has been reviewed numerous times in the past twenty-five years. Most reviews conclude that there is little or no consistent evidence that harsher penalties reduce crime rates in Western populations. Indeed, a reasonable assessment of the research to date--with a particular focus on studies conducted in the past decade--is that sentence severity has no effect on the level of crime in society. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"21565\" data-originallang=\"en\">Would that the issue of crime lend itself to a simple answer, a simple answer such as \u201clet us only make the penalties harsh enough and the crime rate will automatically be reduced\u201d. Whether we like to admit it or not, the complexity of human behaviour and identifying causes for human behaviour do not lend themselves to simple answers.</p>",
        "fr": "<p data-HoCid=\"21549\" data-originallang=\"en\">Monsieur le Pr\u00e9sident, j'ai \u00e9cout\u00e9 certains discours des d\u00e9put\u00e9s d'en face et j'ai entendu diverses allusions \u00e0 des cas particuliers. Nos vis-\u00e0-vis ont d\u00e9clar\u00e9 qu'on pouvait et devait en fait tirer une conclusion g\u00e9n\u00e9rale de l'analyse de simplement quelques cas ou quelques situations. Il est toujours risqu\u00e9 d'agir ainsi et, en toute d\u00e9f\u00e9rence, cela manque de profondeur sur le plan intellectuel.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21550\" data-originallang=\"en\">J'ai pratiqu\u00e9 le droit pendant 25 ans avant d'\u00eatre \u00e9lu \u00e0 cette \u00e9minente Chambre en juin 2004, et j'ai repr\u00e9sent\u00e9 de nombreux individus accus\u00e9s de divers crimes. Manifestement, je ne peux violer le secret professionnel en donnant des noms, mais je peux certes pr\u00e9ciser que j'ai remarqu\u00e9 que les peines en milieu ouvert sont bonnes pour la soci\u00e9t\u00e9, pour la victime, pour la famille des d\u00e9linquants et pour les d\u00e9linquants eux-m\u00eames. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21551\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je parle d'individus accus\u00e9s de crimes parfois graves. Ils comparaissaient devant le juge qui, \u00e0 la suite d'un plaidoyer ou d'un verdict de culpabilit\u00e9, devait ensuite se pencher sur la peine ou la sanction \u00e0 imposer. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21552\" data-originallang=\"en\">Il est important de se rappeler la position d'un \u00e9minent avocat qui est devenu ensuite juge, le regrett\u00e9 G. Arthur Martin. Le juge Martin a servi avec distinction pendant de nombreuses ann\u00e9es \u00e0 la Cour d'appel de l'Ontario et il \u00e9tait largement reconnu \u00e0 son \u00e9poque comme la principale autorit\u00e9 en mati\u00e8re de droit p\u00e9nal au Canada. Le juge Martin et beaucoup d'autres ont d\u00e9clar\u00e9 que le grand principe de la d\u00e9termination de la peine est d'\u00e9tablir ce que le d\u00e9linquant en question m\u00e9rite de recevoir comme punition pour l'infraction qu'il a commise. La r\u00e9alit\u00e9, c'est que le comportement humain ne se pr\u00eate pas \u00e0 une analyse simple ou informatique et il est trop simpliste de conclure qu'il y aura automatiquement un effet dissuasif si les peines pr\u00e9vues sont suffisamment s\u00e9v\u00e8res.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21553\" data-originallang=\"en\">Dans bien des cas, le contrevenant, qui est aussi p\u00e8re de famille, se voit imposer une peine en milieu ouvert apr\u00e8s avoir \u00e9t\u00e9 reconnu coupable. Ce type de peine lui permet, par exemple, de conserver son emploi et de continuer \u00e0 faire vivre sa famille et \u00e0 assumer son r\u00f4le de p\u00e8re aupr\u00e8s de ses enfants. Puisqu'il conserve son emploi, il peut d\u00e9dommager ou indemniser la ou les victimes. Il peut \u00e9galement suivre une th\u00e9rapie ou tout traitement impos\u00e9 par le juge.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21554\" data-originallang=\"en\">Bref, la peine en milieu ouvert est avantageuse pour tout le monde, puisque les contrevenants ne retournent pas entre les mains du syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale, tirent des le\u00e7ons de leurs erreurs et tournent la page.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21555\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je sais qu'il est tentant de percevoir le syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale comme un syst\u00e8me qui fonctionne selon des formules et selon le principe que des peines plus s\u00e9v\u00e8res r\u00e9duisent automatiquement le taux de criminalit\u00e9. C'est tentant, mais ce point de vue est \u00e9troit et n'est pas conforme \u00e0 l'exp\u00e9rience que nous avons du syst\u00e8me canadien actuel.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21556\" data-originallang=\"en\">Je ne suis pas le premier \u00e0 le dire: il ne faut pas oublier que le taux de criminalit\u00e9 est \u00e0 la baisse au Canada. Il n'y a aucune preuve que mettre plus de gens en prison est un v\u00e9ritable moyen de dissuasion. S'il y avait un lien clair entre l'augmentation du nombre d'incarc\u00e9rations et la baisse de la criminalit\u00e9, on pourrait d\u00e9fendre en toute logique l'id\u00e9e de mettre plus de gens en prison. Or, les faits disent le contraire. Le taux de criminalit\u00e9 est \u00e0 la baisse au Canada.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21557\" data-originallang=\"en\">L'ancien gouvernement lib\u00e9ral comprenait tout \u00e0 fait que certains crimes graves n\u00e9cessitent un certain type d'intervention, et c'est pourquoi nous avions adopt\u00e9 la politique des peines minimales obligatoires. Le Code criminel pr\u00e9voit d\u00e9j\u00e0 quelque 42 peines minimales obligatoires, dont la majorit\u00e9 punissent justement des infractions commises \u00e0 l'aide d'une arme \u00e0 feu. Il y a dix infractions graves commises \u00e0 l'aide d'une arme \u00e0 feu qui sont assujetties \u00e0 des peines minimales obligatoires pouvant aller de 4 \u00e0 14 ans. Le trafic d'armes et les infractions connexes, pour leur part, sont assujettis \u00e0 des peines minimales obligatoires qui varient entre 1 et 10 ans.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21558\" data-originallang=\"en\">Lorsqu'un accus\u00e9 compara\u00eet devant un juge, il tra\u00eene dans la salle d'audience ses ant\u00e9c\u00e9dents, son v\u00e9cu, ses difficult\u00e9s, son d\u00e9ficit intellectuel, le cas \u00e9ch\u00e9ant, une enfance marqu\u00e9e par la violence, son d\u00e9savantage \u00e9conomique, les pr\u00e9judices ou les st\u00e9r\u00e9otypes raciaux auxquels il a \u00e9t\u00e9 expos\u00e9, ainsi que beaucoup d'autres facteurs. Par exemple, tous les observateurs raisonnables savent qu'un nombre disproportionn\u00e9 de Canadiens autochtones sont incarc\u00e9r\u00e9s. Se contenter d'incarc\u00e9rer des personnes sans leur fournir de soutien psychologique ni de traitement pour les aider \u00e0 modifier leurs comportements \u00e0 long terme, c'est faire preuve de myopie.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21559\" data-originallang=\"en\">Cela dit, je ne veux pas donner l'impression que moi ou d'autres sommes trop tol\u00e9rants envers le crime. Je voulais simplement faire valoir que le juge Martin, entre autres, a raison de conclure que le principe pr\u00e9pond\u00e9rant dans la d\u00e9termination des peines consiste \u00e0 infliger le ch\u00e2timent que m\u00e9rite le d\u00e9linquant pour le crime qu'il a commis. Il est na\u00eff de croire qu'on r\u00e9duira le taux de criminalit\u00e9 en construisant plus de prisons. Il est irresponsable de construire des prisons au lieu de consacrer cet argent aux a\u00een\u00e9s, aux Autochtones et aux handicap\u00e9s.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21560\" data-originallang=\"en\">Une strat\u00e9gie de pr\u00e9vention du crime doit englober autre chose que l'emprisonnement. Le gouvernement lib\u00e9ral pr\u00e9c\u00e9dent a pris de nombreuses mesures qui visaient \u00e0 r\u00e9duire l'activit\u00e9 criminelle partout au Canada. Nous avons augment\u00e9 le financement de la Strat\u00e9gie nationale pour la pr\u00e9vention du crime. Depuis son lancement en 1998, cette strat\u00e9gie a permis aux communaut\u00e9s de se doter des outils, des connaissances et des moyens de soutien n\u00e9cessaires pour s'attaquer aux causes fondamentales de la criminalit\u00e9 \u00e0 l'\u00e9chelle locale. \u00c0 l'\u00e9chelle du pays, elle a permis d'appuyer plus de 5 000 projets portant sur des questions graves comme la violence familiale, l'exploitation sexuelle, l'agression sexuelle ou l'abus des drogues. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21561\" data-originallang=\"en\">Dans ma circonscription, Brant, plusieurs projets lanc\u00e9s dans le cadre de la strat\u00e9gie ont \u00e9t\u00e9 des r\u00e9ussites. Ces projets visent \u00e0 faire participer les jeunes \u00e0 la communaut\u00e9. L'un d'entre eux, administr\u00e9 par le Centre d'aide aux victimes d'agression sexuelle de Brant, a permis de mettre sur pied un th\u00e9\u00e2tre-jeunesse. Dans le cadre du projet, on invitait des \u00e9tudiants \u00e0 d\u00e9finir certains enjeux sociaux importants, \u00e0 en discuter et \u00e0 faire des activit\u00e9s de sensibilisation \u00e0 leur \u00e9gard. </p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21562\" data-originallang=\"en\">\u00c9videmment, il importe que nos rues et nos communaut\u00e9s soient s\u00fbres. Il est critique que notre syst\u00e8me de justice p\u00e9nale garantisse la s\u00e9curit\u00e9 de chaque membre de la soci\u00e9t\u00e9. Il est tout aussi critique qu'il donne des solutions \u00e0 long terme en mati\u00e8re de r\u00e9duction des taux de criminalit\u00e9.</p>\n<p data-HoCid=\"21563\" data-originallang=\"en\">Comme d'autres l'ont signal\u00e9, c'est la r\u00e9adaptation de la personne qui offre la meilleure protection \u00e0 long terme \u00e0 la soci\u00e9t\u00e9, \u00e9tant donn\u00e9 qu'elle met fin au risque de la poursuite d'une carri\u00e8re criminelle. Il n'existe tout simplement pas de preuve convaincante que l'augmentation du nombre de peines minimales obligatoires r\u00e9duira les taux de criminalit\u00e9 au Canada. Cheryl Webster et Anthony Doob, du Centre de criminologie de l'Universit\u00e9 de Toronto, d\u00e9clarent en effet: </p>\n<blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"21564\" data-originallang=\"en\"> Les \u00e9crits concernant les effets de la s\u00e9v\u00e9rit\u00e9 des peines sur les niveaux de criminalit\u00e9 ont \u00e9t\u00e9 recens\u00e9s \u00e0 de nombreuses occasions au cours des derni\u00e8res 25 ann\u00e9es. Dans la plupart des analyses documentaires, on arrive \u00e0 la conclusion qu'il n'existe \u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s pas de preuves convergentes que les peines plus s\u00e9v\u00e8res r\u00e9duisent les taux de criminalit\u00e9 dans les populations occidentales. En effet, selon toute \u00e9valuation raisonnable de la recherche faite \u00e0 ce jour--et portant plus particuli\u00e8rement sur les \u00e9tudes men\u00e9es au cours de la derni\u00e8re d\u00e9cennie--la s\u00e9v\u00e9rit\u00e9 de la peine n'a aucune incidence sur les niveaux de criminalit\u00e9 dans la soci\u00e9t\u00e9. </p>\n</blockquote><p data-HoCid=\"21565\" data-originallang=\"en\">Qui ne souhaiterait pas que la criminalit\u00e9 se pr\u00eate \u00e0 une analyse et \u00e0 des solutions simples du genre: \u00ab rendons les peines suffisamment s\u00e9v\u00e8res et le taux de criminalit\u00e9 baissera automatiquement \u00bb. Que nous soyons pr\u00eats ou non \u00e0 le reconna\u00eetre, la complexit\u00e9 du comportement humain et l'identification des causes de ce comportement ne se pr\u00eatent pas \u00e0 des r\u00e9ponses faciles. </p>"
    },
    "url": "/debates/2006/6/9/lloyd-st-amand-1/",
    "politician_url": "/politicians/272/",
    "politician_membership_url": "/politicians/memberships/578/",
    "procedural": false,
    "source_id": "1584964",
    "h1": {
        "en": "Government Orders",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "h2": {
        "en": "Criminal Code",
        "fr": ""
    },
    "document_url": "/debates/2006/6/9/",
    "related": {
        "document_speeches_url": "/speeches/?document=%2Fdebates%2F2006%2F6%2F9%2F"
    }
}